The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	So why did British voters continue to elect government after government that committed the country to the EU concept then????

Perhaps because it was good, albeit with diminishing returns. Until it wasn't.

	Quote:	greenmount
	Not to you specifically, but how many people know, for instance, that everyone can start and submit a petition in regards with an EU legislative area?

A petition is entirely non-binding.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Perhaps because it was good, albeit with diminishing returns. Until it wasn't. A petition is entirely non-binding.

True, it's the first step but I don't think I'm wrong when I assume the vast majority of "European Union citizens" have no idea they have this right, among many others. It's simply not a subject debated very much. It was just an example.
It looks like everyone is powerless, everyone is complaining but in reality we all have to push for more accountability first at home and then within EU. imho obviously.

[curley]

	Quote:	greenmount
	True, it's the first step but I don't think I'm wrong when I assume the vast majority of "European Union citizens" have no idea they have this right, among many others. It's simply not a subject debated very much. It was just an example. It looks like everyone is powerless, everyone is complaining but in reality we all have to push for more accountability first at home and then within EU. imho obviously.

That's not true. The German government is having the best time ever and sometimes the French may play along.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	curley
	That's not true. The German government is having the best time ever and sometimes the French may play along.

I see what you've done here...

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Haha, see?

That's not spinelessness, that's submission

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	That's not spinelessness, that's submission

I doubt it. It's forward thinking.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I doubt it. It's forward thinking.

Different words, same meaning - avoid the consequences.

Just like she will do at times, it's called being a social animal. It's why I find that demand of "honesty at all times" fruitless and a bit silly. Small kids haven't learned to lie yet, everybody knows the situations that causes every once in a while (far from all of them nice or funny).

[greenmount]

I think we all need some personal space and time when we can keep our precious freedom of thought. It's not always fruitful or necessary to confront all of our opinions with others, especially when we don't know those people that well.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	greenmount
	True, it's the first step but I don't think I'm wrong when I assume the vast majority of "European Union citizens" have no idea they have this right, among many others. It's simply not a subject debated very much. It was just an example. It looks like everyone is powerless, everyone is complaining but in reality we all have to push for more accountability first at home and then within EU. imho obviously.

Yes, it's a safe bet that only a smallish minority knows how the EU works or what possibilities exist, even fewer than WRT people's respective own country. I just don't see the usefulness of such a "right", it reminds me of the UK where a petition must be talked about by the Commons, even as little as five minutes, and it's been properly dealt with. Guess I'm spoiled by the local system.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Yes, it's a safe bet that only a smallish minority knows how the EU works or what possibilities exist, even fewer than WRT people's respective own country. I just don't see the usefulness of such a "right", it reminds me of the UK where a petition must be talked about by the Commons, even as little as five minutes, and it's been properly dealt with. Guess I'm spoiled by the local system.

Accountability is about being able to get straight answers and being able to demand and enforce consequences.

The right to non-binding referenda and the right to demand 5 minute debates that will be attended by less than 5 percent of parliamentarians simply do not tick the boxes and do not provide adequate means to rectify grievances.

The Swiss system is the only system that even comes close to genuine accounatbility and giving the people the means to overule their government.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Different words, same meaning - avoid the consequences. Just like she will do at times, it's called being a social animal. It's why I find that demand of "honesty at all times" fruitless and a bit silly. Small kids haven't learned to lie yet, everybody knows the situations that causes every once in a while (far from all of them nice or funny).

Yet you won't hear your friends or acquaintances telling your kids they are spoiled brats, even if they might deserve it at that particular moment....etc.etc.etc.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure most people know all of these....whether they apply these rules themselves or not, or with whom they think it's OK to just let it go at particular moments...that is not my business. Neither responding to random and rather rude EF calls to defend something that obvious.

Thanks for your post, I particularly liked that part with "social animal". One can only hope.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Anyways, I'm pretty sure most people know all of these....whether they apply these rules themselves or not, or with whom they think it's OK to just let it go at particular moments...that is not my business. Neither responding to random and rather rude EF calls to defend something that obvious.

Probably (though that message concerning the kids should be addressed to the parents instead, should the situation be severe enough to warrant commenting on). Which leads to the assumption that FMF was talking about something entirely different. For instance, that one should accept differing positions on a political topic (Brexit anybody? wasn't it blueangel who said that she knows households who almost broke apart due to it?), and to agree to disagree. Or the requirement to tell a friend that their current OH is not good for them, futile as that's likely to be - not because they're too low or whatever (that's no outsider's business) but because their OH is toxic for the friend, for example.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Probably (though that message concerning the kids should be addressed to the parents instead, should the situation be severe enough to warrant commenting on). Which leads to the assumption that FMF was talking about something entirely different. For instance, that one should accept differing positions on a political topic (Brexit anybody? wasn't it blueangel who said that she knows households who almost broke apart due to it?), and to agree to disagree. Or the requirement to tell a friend that their current OH is not good for them, futile as that's likely to be - not because they're too low or whatever (that's no outsider's business) but because their OH is toxic for the friend, for example.

Yes, it was BA but not only her, who mentioned cases she knows of, cases of people who had serious disagreements with friends and relatives on the subject of Brexit. Have heard of similar stories related to Trump phenomenon myself. Which again, it brings us to the point of acknowledging the toxicity in politics and the potential of dividing people instead of being just another casual topic of discussion, as it used to be say 10 years ago. What has really changed in the meantime? I think media has changed a lot, and not always in the right direction. They take advantage of the fact that people rarely check their info from more sources than one, and by that I don't mean internet fora or another news channels which are just copy-paste-ing news they haven't check out themselves. It's less and less professionalism, more and more (political or social) agendas.

There are many causes for that, don't even know where to begin. I hope all these people who found themselves in these absurd situation came around, it's not really worth it. There was so much manipulation during Brexit, post Brexit, I really don't blame anyone for falling into any category. It was simply impossible for some not to fall into one camp or another and get really involved in this thing.
Some were hit by the Brexit, not only on a let's say "ideological" level, there were consequences in real life that, as far as I noticed, were shut down here on EF.
I remember Odile and others complaining a lot, if we are to refer only to EF members' experiences or past discussions.

As far as I'm concerned I know people who can get really upset because of politics, at times, but that was never a reason to exclude them or be excluded by them from each other's lives. The way one handles situations like this has nothing to do with integrity, that is absolutely silly. Sometimes you really have to take a deep breath and a few steps back. You don't have to "win" every discussion, you don't have to hurt people by dragging them down and tiring them out with insidious remarks which are meant to make them see your point, whatever that is. It happens a lot on EF. It's annoying. I guess that happens on all fora, among regular members who are under the impression they "know" each other.

I want my friends or relatives to have their own opinions after all, even though I might strongly disagree with them. However, in real life, at least in my environment, people don't step so easily on certain boundaries. It's not about being boring or always agreeing with each other, far from it, we can be very passionate but keep up our humour and self irony too, it's about recognising the need of boundaries and more than anything, our priorities. Politics, EU are not really some of them, albeit they influence our lives too, directly and indirectly. Things that MC has mentioned in some of her posts here have been mentioned by people back home too. There are a lot of things to talk about when a discussion gets stuck though.

I don't even know why we're talking about such banalities, it has not so much to do with EU, the same way as our anecdotes and people we know being really disappointed, and rightly so, with the way EU functions and can or cannot be changed at some levels. These are anecdotes. I'd prefer to move forward and understand what can be done.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	Politics, EU are not really some of them, albeit they influence our lives too, directly and indirectly.

On the contrary, politics are fundamental, because it determines the very way you get to live your life, ask any gay person that wants to marry their partner.

What we saw in the UK during BREXIT was the result of people not being politically engaged, many of them only started to discover how their country was governed during the debate for heaven’s sake.

In my opinion people in Switzerland and Ireland tend to be more politically aware simply because they are regularly asked to consider how the country is governed in addition to who they want to govern the country. You can’t live in the country and be unaware of the debates etc even if you choose not to vote in the end. The more people are aware the more difficult it is to sell the more outlandish stories.

For instance the whole idea of pooled sovereignty with the EU, then the EEC, was debated and decided upon in Ireland back in 1973 before Ireland and the UK joined the EEC on the same day. And the decision was that only the Irish people could decide matters of sovereignty and that is why the Irish parliament cannot ratify an EU treaty change.

Did the UK government lie to UK voters about the nature of the EEC back in the day as many BREXITEERS claimed? Well in the light of the debate going on in Ireland at the same time - probably!

[JackieH]

Political opinions don't belong into a no man's land vacuum- they have real consequences on real people. How far do you go with the 'agree to disagree' - racism, fascisim - are there really no red lines you will refuse to cross?


So many people talk about 'politics' as if it was in a separate box from real life. Heard so many people say, and sadly often women 'I don't believe in politics' - the mind boggles. Politics is about education, social care, the NHS/healthcare, the care of the elderly and those of all ages with a disability. It is about our relationships with other countries, about transport, agriculture and what we eat, the environment and how we protect it, business and trade, finances, safety and army, intelligence, crime and terrorism, how we deal with pandemics, - and so much more. Basic, every day life and death.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	greenmount
	I don't even know why we're talking about such banalities, it has not so much to do with EU, the same way as our anecdotes and people we know being really disappointed, and rightly so, with the way EU functions and can or cannot be changed at some levels. These are anecdotes. I'd prefer to move forward and understand what can be done.

It's your choice to post stuff you seem to deem banal. And please speak for yourself.

WRT to the topic of lies I most strongly disagree, that topic is anything but banal. In fact trust, the mirror image of lies, is a central element without which our society couldn't possibly function. Heck, we even put our health and lives in the hands of strangers as part of our everyday lives based on nothing but trust.

Which leads back to the MSM and their daily misrepresentations and outright blatant lies. The MSM no longer care about fair and relatively factual reporting (according to post-modernism there's no such thing as truth and objective reality anyway), their sole driver is clicks and clickbaiting as the means to generate cash flow. The shortest path to that is outrage, and stirring emotions in general, that's also why every topic has a very short shelf life as strong emotions will abate after a relatively short time - climate change and FfF anyone?

	Quote:	JackieH
	Political opinions don't belong into a no man's land vacuum- they have real consequences on real people. How far do you go with the 'agree to disagree' - racism, fascisim - are there really no red lines you will refuse to cross?

It's a condition sine qua non in a democracy, due to freedom of opinion and expression thereof. Democracy defined as an organisation of state where the individual is the sole and ultimate source of legal power.

You need to be able to discuss anything and everything in public, strong emphasis on discuss. What you agree on in private is, well, a private matter.

ETA:
At the risk of being wrong, I'm assuming that you think Trump is racist, or has racist tendencies, or at least accepts/welcomes racists among his followers. If that's correct, can you give me a short reasoning what you base that opinion on?

(yes, entirely OT, but it's far from the first thread that derails for a short while)

[JackieH]

No short reasoning- but miles and miles of evidence. So long, easier to post a link


https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/122708...racism-history

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	On the contrary, politics are fundamental, because it determines the very way you get to live your life, ask any gay person that wants to marry their partner. What we saw in the UK during BREXIT was the result of people not being politically engaged, many of them only started to discover how their country was governed during the debate for heaven’s sake. In my opinion people in Switzerland and Ireland tend to be more politically aware simply because they are regularly asked to consider how the country is governed in addition to who they want to govern the country. You can’t live in the country and be unaware of the debates etc even if you choose not to vote in the end. The more people are aware the more difficult it is to sell the more outlandish stories. For instance the whole idea of pooled sovereignty with the EU, then the EEC, was debated and decided upon in Ireland back in 1973 before Ireland and the UK joined the EEC on the same day. And the decision was that only the Irish people could decide matters of sovereignty and that is why the Irish parliament cannot ratify an EU treaty change. Did the UK government lie to UK voters about the nature of the EEC back in the day as many BREXITEERS claimed? Well in the light of the debate going on in Ireland at the same time - probably!

Excellent point about direct democracy.

One thing I really like about Switzerland is the trust people and local authorities are shown to have real power. Compared to the situation in the UK where both main parties are incredibly centralising and big government.

I voted brexit back in 2016 as I believe that government should be local and accountable, and that unelected and distant EU commissioners take the "demos" out of democracy.

It's really a pipe dream that any good will become of the vote though - it'll just used as an excuse to be rude to Johnny Foreigner and adopt increasingly irrational and badly thought through policy in a misguided Tory attempt to appeal to the red wall voter.

My weariness of the level of the political system in the uk was actually a significant factor in coming here.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	Excellent point about direct democracy. One thing I really like about Switzerland is the trust people and local authorities are shown to have real power. Compared to the situation in the UK where both main parties are incredibly centralising and big government. I voted brexit back in 2016 as I believe that government should be local and accountable, and that unelected and distant EU commissioners take the "demos" out of democracy. It's really a pipe dream that any good will become of the vote though - it'll just used as an excuse to be rude to Johnny Foreigner and adopt increasingly irrational and badly thought through policy in a misguided Tory attempt to appeal to the red wall voter. My weariness of the level of the political system in the uk was actually a significant factor in coming here.

I guess at least Brexit ultimately saw off Jeremy Corbyn. Thank heavens for small mercies.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	greenmount
	True, it's the first step but I don't think I'm wrong when I assume the vast majority of "European Union citizens" have no idea they have this right, among many others. It's simply not a subject debated very much. It was just an example. It looks like everyone is powerless, everyone is complaining but in reality we all have to push for more accountability first at home and then within EU. imho obviously.

Your first step should be to stop assuming this that and the other and start reading the research reports and the surveys that are published on a regular basis by the EU, the member state and the various watch dogs etc...