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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #27681  
Old 02.08.2020, 08:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's your choice to post stuff you seem to deem banal. And please speak for yourself.

.......................................
It's a condition sine qua non in a democracy, due to freedom of opinion and expression thereof. Democracy defined as an organisation of state where the individual is the sole and ultimate source of legal power.

You need to be able to discuss anything and everything in public, strong emphasis on discuss. What you agree on in private is, well, a private matter.
Well, I aim to post stuff that is on-topic, and yes, frankly I'm a bit frustrated when people insist going off on a tangent. From a short agreement with someone's post, as to confirm the opinion that what our friends and people we hang around with might not be always willing to disagree with us but rather look for common grounds or simply let the discussion flow, for reasons I deem obvious and quite banal...to here. OK, the subject is important if you put everything in the context of freedom of expression and democracy.

My point was what other people say and think it is important to a certain degree, but I have my doubts it is fruitful to debate all our anecdotes. At the end of the day, everyone has a vote and they will use it as they see fit.

My intention was to discuss more to the point and I'm still interested in the EU fiscal policy for instance. The way people see it here is not the way specialists see it. There are different reasons for which EU needs a common fiscal policy. Maybe I'll try to post some relevant links to articles I found interesting when I get more time. Maybe.

And yes, we should be able to debate everything in public. Common affairs, people's private lives are not our business.....although tabloids might disagree on that... As far as I'm concerned, polite disagreements are the only ones that make me reconsider my opinion. Not necessarily change it but give more thoughts to some issues.
Of course I can't speak for anyone else and I did not intend to do that. I might have phrased my thoughts poorly, it didn't seem very important to the debate tbh.

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Political opinions don't belong into a no man's land vacuum- they have real consequences on real people. How far do you go with the 'agree to disagree' - racism, fascisim - are there really no red lines you will refuse to cross?

So many people talk about 'politics' as if it was in a separate box from real life. Heard so many people say, and sadly often women 'I don't believe in politics' - the mind boggles. Politics is about education, social care, the NHS/healthcare, the care of the elderly and those of all ages with a disability. It is about our relationships with other countries, about transport, agriculture and what we eat, the environment and how we protect it, business and trade, finances, safety and army, intelligence, crime and terrorism, how we deal with pandemics, - and so much more. Basic, every day life and death.
Politics is very important but different people are aware of that to different degrees. For instance, you might be more involved or engaged than others. I heard that too "I don't believe in politics", also especially from women... Just think of the reasons they might believe that. Not trying to find any excuses here but to understand their opinions. I have my explanations too which I choose not to post here as to keep this thread on track.....there's always hope.

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Your first step should be to stop assuming this that and the other and start reading the research reports and the surveys that are published on a regular basis by the EU, the member state and the various watch dogs etc...
I've actually read a few reports on how well people know their rights within EU and there are (huge) differences among various countries. And even so, some rights are known, some not. I rarely assume on some topics, that's why I don't take certain opinions here very lightly. As for implementing those rights...well, that's a whole different matter. Rights and obligations, that would be an interesting topic to debate, not necessarily here.
Keep up the good job to anyone who posts in good faith.

@UrsMax, I have put some order in my posts and merged two of them as to give more clarity

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WRT to the topic of lies I most strongly disagree, that topic is anything but banal. In fact trust, the mirror image of lies, is a central element without which our society couldn't possibly function. Heck, we even put our health and lives in the hands of strangers as part of our everyday lives based on nothing but trust.

Which leads back to the MSM and their daily misrepresentations and outright blatant lies.
If you are interested in the topic of prosocial lies, white lies, courtesy bias etc there are tons of materials and research papers

https://faculty.wharton.upenn.edu/wp...Lies-OBHDP.pdf

https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view...8-e-22-div2-68

https://www.businessinsider.com/lies...18-4?r=US&IR=T

https://poly.land/2018/11/17/when-pe...-want-to-hear/

https://www.in-mind.org/article/whit...ow-they-differ

I know you didn't refer to white lies in regards with MSM, but it is important to remind you how this discussion started in the first place. I personally think that well engineered propaganda campaigns are a separate thing.

Last edited by greenmount; 03.08.2020 at 18:18. Reason: adding quotes and merging two posts for more clarity
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  #27682  
Old 02.08.2020, 11:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Excellent point about direct democracy.

One thing I really like about Switzerland is the trust people and local authorities are shown to have real power. Compared to the situation in the UK where both main parties are incredibly centralising and big government.

I voted brexit back in 2016 as I believe that government should be local and accountable, and that unelected and distant EU commissioners take the "demos" out of democracy.

It's really a pipe dream that any good will become of the vote though - it'll just used as an excuse to be rude to Johnny Foreigner and adopt increasingly irrational and badly thought through policy in a misguided Tory attempt to appeal to the red wall voter.

My weariness of the level of the political system in the uk was actually a significant factor in coming here.
No doubt the Scots have the same view about Westminster as you did about Brussels.


Still on the plus side of leaving no doubt Boris gets a 'warm fuzzy feeling' about the estimated £72 billion pound contribution savings that the UK would have had to put in the EU Covid Recovery Fund that
Britain avoided by leaving on the 31st January this year.
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  #27683  
Old 02.08.2020, 12:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Johnson finds himself in a very difficult position. He was pro EU, but so hell bent on becoming PM he had to get ERG on his side and the far right too.

He now knows that the EU will not compromise on the level playing field or on the Irish border. He also knows No Deal will be disastrous, and that a deal with Trump will cost the UK the NHS, workers' rights and agriculture and financial services, and that he will never be forgiven for this, and that other deals are not forthcoming or insignificant.


So watch this space- what will he do next? Some are predicting a massive U-turn

Last edited by JackieH; 02.08.2020 at 13:18.
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  #27684  
Old 02.08.2020, 14:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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He now knows that the EU will not compromise on the level playing field or on the Irish border. He also knows No Deal will be disastrous, and that a deal with Trump will cost the UK the NHS, workers' rights and agriculture and financial services, and that he will never be forgiven for this, and that other deals are not forthcoming or insignificant.
It’s a bit more complicated than that though....

- The US Congress will not approve any deal that does not respect GFA
- The Japanese and Canadian trade deals with the EU requires EU agreement to give the any deal as good as or better than the deal with the EU
- Approval of the UK trade terms at the WTO requires members to accept a lower duty free quota with the EU, so no surprises that many members are objecting
- The WTO requires the approval of all 165 members versus 27 in the EU...

And the WTO Terms published by the UK government will see 87% of imports from the 165 members enter the UK at zero tariffs... more competition for the home industries... and not much motivation to do a trade deal in any hurry...

And of course no one mentions services.... which is the usual reason for explaining away a thirty period in which the UK rarely produced a positive balance of trade... we’re a service economy!

I fear we’ll see a lot of unrest in the UK as the average BREXITEERS realize that their vote counted for nothing as they are still being screwed by the establishment.
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  #27685  
Old 02.08.2020, 15:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No short reasoning- but miles and miles of evidence. So long, easier to post a link


https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/122708...racism-history
Sorry but that article is nonsense. It conflates stereotyping, xenophobia, and other not-so-nice attitudes under the "racist" umbrella, probably with no other intent than to maximise outrage.

And of course it's nothing but a blatant lie by the MSM when they claim that Trump didn't condemn Nazis and the white nationalists/supremacists in the aftermath of Charlottesville. The only thing you've probably seen is his "there were fine people on both sides" or similar, but the MSM willfully ignore his statement at around 1min57 in the press briefing. That statement makes it crystal clear that Trump speaks about non-extremists (from both sides !!) in the rest of the press briefing.

So it's racist to dub Covid-19 as the China virus after its place of origin or first know outbreak. Yet the follwoing names are perfectly fine even though, like China virus, all describe the pathogen's place of discovery or first outbreak:
Spanish flu, Hongkong flu, Norovirus (from Norwalk, Conn., where it was first identified), German measles (rubella), MERS (Middle East Respiratory Syndrom), Marburg virus (after a German town where it was identified first), ebola virus (after a river in Kongo). It's always good to see people don't fall for double standards. Cough. Cough. Cough.
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  #27686  
Old 02.08.2020, 15:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Excellent point about direct democracy.

One thing I really like about Switzerland is the trust people and local authorities are shown to have real power. Compared to the situation in the UK where both main parties are incredibly centralising and big government.

I voted brexit back in 2016 as I believe that government should be local and accountable, and that unelected and distant EU commissioners take the "demos" out of democracy.

It's really a pipe dream that any good will become of the vote though - it'll just used as an excuse to be rude to Johnny Foreigner and adopt increasingly irrational and badly thought through policy in a misguided Tory attempt to appeal to the red wall voter.

My weariness of the level of the political system in the uk was actually a significant factor in coming here.
Pity your vote was predicated on the myth that EU commissioners make decisions. They can only recommend, it is the EU states together with the EU Parliament that have decision making powers.
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  #27687  
Old 02.08.2020, 15:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

A British-German study uncovers huge changes in migration patterns of UK citizens since the
2016 British Referendum on the EU.

Well no surprise from this report.

Remember to click on - I'll do it later - to read the full article.

The Guardian - Brexit fuels brain drain as skilled Britons head to the EU

Last edited by John William; 02.08.2020 at 16:03.
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  #27688  
Old 02.08.2020, 15:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Pity your vote was predicated on the myth that EU commissioners make decisions. They can only recommend, it is the EU states together with the EU Parliament that have decision making powers.
Yes, let's read exactly what their role is, not what people assume.
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The European Commission is the EU's politically independent executive arm. It is alone responsible for drawing up proposals for new European legislation, and it implements the decisions of the European Parliament and the Council of the EU.

What does the Commission do?
Proposes new laws
The Commission is the sole EU institution tabling laws for adoption by the Parliament and the Council that:

protect the interests of the EU and its citizens on issues that can't be dealt with effectively at national level
get technical details right by consulting experts and the public
Manages EU policies & allocates EU funding
sets EU spending priorities, together with the Council and Parliament
draws up annual budgets for approval by the Parliament and Council
supervises how the money is spent, under scrutiny by the Court of Auditors
Enforces EU law
together with the Court of Justice, ensures that EU law is properly applied in all the member countries
Represents the EU internationally
speaks on behalf of all EU countries in international bodies, in particular in areas of trade policy and humanitarian aid
negotiates international agreements for the EU
Composition
Political leadership is provided by a team of 27 Commissioners (one from each EU country) – led by the Commission President, who decides who is responsible for which policy area.

The College of Commissioners is composed of the President of the Commission, eight Vice-Presidents, including three Executive Vice-Presidents, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, and 18 Commissioners, each responsible for a portfolio.

The day-to-day running of Commission business is performed by its staff (lawyers, economists, etc.), organised into departments known as Directorates-General (DGs), each responsible for a specific policy area.

Appointing the President
The candidate is put forward by national leaders in the European Council, taking account of the results of the European Parliament elections. He or she needs the support of a majority of members of the European Parliament in order to be elected.

Selecting the team
The Presidential candidate selects potential Vice-Presidents and Commissioners based on suggestions from the EU countries. The list of nominees has to be approved by national leaders in the European Council.

Each nominee appears before the European Parliament to explain their vision and answer questions. Parliament then votes on whether to accept the nominees as a team. Finally, they are appointed by the European Council, by a qualified majority.

The current Commission's term of office runs until 31 October 2024.

How does the Commission work?
Strategic planning
The President defines the policy direction for the Commission, which enables the Commissioners together to decide strategic objectives, and produce the annual work programme.

Collective decision making
Decisions are taken based on collective responsibility. All Commissioners are equal in the decision-making process and equally accountable for these decisions. They do not have any individual decision-making powers, except when authorized in certain situations.

The Vice-Presidents act on behalf of the President and coordinate work in their area of responsibility, together with several Commissioners. Priority projects are defined to help ensure that the College works together in a close and flexible manner.

Commissioners support Vice-Presidents in submitting proposals to the College. In general, decisions are made by consensus, but votes can also take place. In this case, decisions are taken by simple majority, where every Commissioner has one vote.

The relevant Directorate-General (headed by a Director-General, answerable to the relevant Commissioner) then takes up the subject. This is usually done in the form of draft legislative proposals.

These are then resubmitted to the Commissioners for adoption at their weekly meeting, after which they become official, and are sent to the Council and the Parliament for the next stage in the EU legislative process.

The European Commission and you
Give input
If you want to give us your views on EU policies or suggest changes or new policies, you have various options:

send a response to a Commission public consultation on an issue that concerns you
launch a European Citizens' Initiative
make a formal complaint if you think EU law is not being applied properly in your case
Get info
The Commission also provides advice & information services to help you with business, study, legal matters, and moving and working around Europe.

Contact us
For any questions you have about our work:

contact Commission staff (in Brussels, etc.)
contact a local Commission office in your country
From
https://europa.eu/european-union/abo...-commission_en
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  #27689  
Old 02.08.2020, 17:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

@UrsMax
"Which leads back to the MSM and their daily misrepresentations and outright blatant lies."
If this is your opinion then that is OK. If you want to claim it as a fact then you need to show enough examples to confirm it as a pattern of behaviour; one or two examples are not sufficient,

I am not a fan of Wikipedia but rather than continue off topic do read this about Trump racism.
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  #27690  
Old 02.08.2020, 17:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Sorry but that article is nonsense. It conflates stereotyping, xenophobia, and other not-so-nice attitudes under the "racist" umbrella, probably with no other intent than to maximise outrage.

And of course it's nothing but a blatant lie by the MSM when they claim that Trump didn't condemn Nazis and the white nationalists/supremacists in the aftermath of Charlottesville. The only thing you've probably seen is his "there were fine people on both sides" or similar, but the MSM willfully ignore his statement at around 1min57 in the press briefing. That statement makes it crystal clear that Trump speaks about non-extremists (from both sides !!) in the rest of the press briefing.

So it's racist to dub Covid-19 as the China virus after its place of origin or first know outbreak. Yet the follwoing names are perfectly fine even though, like China virus, all describe the pathogen's place of discovery or first outbreak:
Spanish flu, Hongkong flu, Norovirus (from Norwalk, Conn., where it was first identified), German measles (rubella), MERS (Middle East Respiratory Syndrom), Marburg virus (after a German town where it was identified first), ebola virus (after a river in Kongo). It's always good to see people don't fall for double standards. Cough. Cough. Cough.
Your problem here is all the examples you quote do not have an alternative official name.
The official name for this virus is Covid-19 so dubbing it with an invented name as China virus is racist, what other reason would one have to deny the official name?
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  #27691  
Old 02.08.2020, 17:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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@UrsMax
"Which leads back to the MSM and their daily misrepresentations and outright blatant lies."
If this is your opinion then that is OK. If you want to claim it as a fact then you need to show enough examples to confirm it as a pattern of behaviour; one or two examples are not sufficient,
I'm not Falsify MSM, Inc.

In fact that's what real journalism is for. Like ksdk.com on the McCloskeys.
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Your problem here is all the examples you quote do not have an alternative official name.
The official name for this virus is Covid-19 so dubbing it with an invented name as China virus is racist, what other reason would one have to deny the official name?
The first two are influenza outbreaks, Wuhan virus, another suggestion, follows the same pattern. MERS isn't the virus but the disease it causes. German measles is colloquial, "official" name (to call it that) is rubella.

And that's just from memory, there's bound to be many more. To put it short, there is no general naming scheme, therefore no officially correct name.

But it's Trump's suggestion, therefore it's racist to call Covid-19 "China virus". As if China didn't consist of many, probably dozens, individual nations and ethnicities.

Last edited by Urs Max; 02.08.2020 at 17:38.
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Old 03.08.2020, 09:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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@UrsMax
"Which leads back to the MSM and their daily misrepresentations and outright blatant lies."
If this is your opinion then that is OK. If you want to claim it as a fact then you need to show enough examples to confirm it as a pattern of behaviour; one or two examples are not sufficient,

I am not a fan of Wikipedia but rather than continue off topic do read this about Trump racism.
MSM is not always doing a stelar job, however, I doubt that fringe media is any better.... Still don't get why you two are talking about Trump on this thread....




On the topic of Brexit and lies.....the article is a bit older but it's spot on.


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If the alphabet was 1,000 letters long, you’d still have no trouble filling it from start to finish with the lies of Brexit. No other topic in our nation’s history has inspired so many untruths.

As it is, you’ll have to settle for 26. As we head towards God knows what on 29 March, it is timely to look back and reflect on the lies, and the liars, who got us this far. So here’s my A to Z of Brexit lies. Please feel free to suggest any additions to me on Twitter (@mk1969). I think there could be a book deal in this.

A is for Anglo-Irish relationship. “Nor is there any prospect of security checks returning to the border. The common travel area between the UK and Ireland pre-dates our EU membership and will outlast it. The unique status Irish citizens are accorded in the UK predates EU membership and will outlast it. There is no reason why the UK’s only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.” Theresa Villiers, Vote Leave press release, 14 April 2016

B is for Billions. Thirty-nine of them to be precise. That's the cost of exiting the European Union. Hard Brexiteers such as Dominic Raab like to kid on that we won't be paying Brussels a penny if we leave without a deal, just the kind of gung-ho statement you'd expect from a man who only recently realised Dover was an important trading port. The chancellor of the exchequer says we will have to pay a big chunk, deal or no deal.

C is for Cameron. Perhaps fittingly, Brexit began with a lie that accidentally came true. David Cameron’s 2015 manifesto promise of a second referendum was designed to keep Tory EU haters happy. He assumed he’d be blocked by Liberal Democrat coalition partners and then he went and won a majority. Which is why C is also for Catastrophe. Cameron also promised he would stay on as PM if Leave won. He quit immediately.

D is for Daily Mail. The Mail, under past editor Paul Dacre, spread more lies about the EU than any other newspaper,
but between them and the Telegraph, Sun, and Express, the creativity of journalism around our relationship with Europe has been exceptional. From excessively curved bananas to milk jugs being banned, from euro notes making you impotent to cows being forced to wear nappies and Bombay mix having to be renamed, our press has waged a decades-long campaign to ridicule the EU. But who’s looking ridiculous now?

E is for Election. “There isn’t going to be one. It isn’t going to happen. There is not going to be a general election.” So said Theresa May’s spokesman in March 2017. A month later, and with soaring 41 per cent approval ratings (three times more popular than Jeremy Corbyn at the time) she “reluctantly” told the nation that a vote was necessary to strengthen her hand in EU negotiations. She lost her majority, throwing the entire process into the abject state of chaos that is Britain today.

F is for Fox. International secretary Liam Fox sold us on the idea of a glorious global Britain, once again creating new waves of international trading and prosperity. “The free trade agreement we will have to do should be one of the easiest in human history,” he said. F is also for* F**ing Idiot.

F is also for Farage. Of the great litany of untruths and outright lies told by the self-styled “Mister Brexit”, perhaps the most heinous was his "Breaking Point" poster, a moment when his xenophobia transcended its usual dog-whistle status into outright blatant racism.

G is for Gove. “The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.” Take a bow, Michael Gove. Thirty-two months later and Britain is still hopelessly lost, no Brexit pathway in sight.

H is for Health Tourism. One of the dog-whistle scares sold to readers of the Daily Mail, Sun and Express during the runup to the Referendum was the extraordinary cost of so-called health tourism – people travelling to the UK solely to benefit from our generous health system. In the case of EU citizens, this is a total fabrication. The truth is that British citizens in the EU receive five times the value of the treatment we give to EU citizens here.

H is also for Hell. It’s going to be a crowded place if Donald Tusk is correct.

I is for Immigration. The idea that countries within the EU have no control of immigration is a lie. We do, but we choose not to exercise it. Tony Blair removed the border exit checks you see in almost every other European country in 1998. That meant we had no way of knowing who was still in the UK and who had left. Under existing rules, EU member states can send EU nationals home after three months if they haven’t found a job or cannot support themselves. We could enforce that, keeping only those actively contributing to our economy. Theresa May, as home secretary, chose not to.

J is for Johnson. Where to begin? At the beginning perhaps. When Boris the great charlatan first flipped to the Leave side: “There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market” – Boris Johnson, the Telegraph, 26 June 2016

K is for Knucklehead, AKA David Davis. Davis came close to contempt proceedings for the blasé way he bluffed and blagged his way through time as Brexit secretary. Notably he assured parliament that his department was creating detailed impact assessments of Brexit’s effect on the British economy. He later confessed to a select committee that this was untrue and in fact no impact assessments had been made. It all lent weight to Vote Leave organiser Dominic Cummings assessment of DD: “Thick as mince, lazy as a toad and vain as Narcissus.”

L is for Lord Digby Jones.
“Not a single job would be lost because of Brexit,” the ex-CBI boss and former lawyer told us before the referendum. Two years later, he was standing by it, falling back on the semantic difference between “Brexit” and “uncertainty around Brexit”. Either way, thousands of jobs have already been repatriated to the continent and government impact assessments forecast a 9.3 per cent hit to the economy under No Deal.

M is for May. Only Donald Trump tops Mrs May’s comfort with leadership in our post-truth age. The central, unforgivable lie she propagates is that she’s acting in the national interest in delivering “The Will Of The People” when she is, in fact, the first British PM in our history to knowingly pursue a policy that will damage the nation. Brexit has already cost two per cent in lost predicted growth and each household is £900 poorer than it would have been had the UK voted to remain in the EU, according to the Bank Of England. “Nobody voted to be poorer,” eh? Oh, yes they did. They just didn’t know it at the time.

N is for NHS. “Once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350 million per week. It would be a fine thing, as many of us have pointed out, if a lot of that money went on the NHS.” So wrote Boris Johnson in the Daily Telegraph. Then they plastered it in massive letters across a bus and drove it across the country. The rest is history.

O is for Opportunities. Vote Leave statement two weeks before the Referendum: “After we vote Leave, we would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals with emerging economies and the world’s biggest economies (the US, China and Japan, as well as Canada, Australia, South Korea, New Zealand and so on), which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU.” Japan recently concluded one of the world’s biggest trade agreements with... the EU. As for us, we’re still waiting.

P. There is no P. The politicians took it.

Q is for Queues. Not for food, yet, but for lorries. Hapless transport secretary Chris Grayling told Question Time in March last year: ”We will maintain a free flowing border at Dover. We will not impose checks in the port. The only reason we would have queues at the border is if we put in place restrictions that created those queues. We are not going to do that.” It’s a lie. The FT reported that lorry checks under a No Deal taking as little as 80 seconds would result in an “unrecoverable” backlog of lorries and the government itself is planning to turn the M20 into a lorry park.

R is for Rees-Mogg. Again, no shortage here. But perhaps the one that fully demonstrates Rees-Mogg’s capacity for manipulative, cynical lying was when he conspired with Steve Baker to accuse, from the floor of the commons, the civil service of trying to scupper Brexit. Baker later apologised. Rees-Mogg, characteristically, has never done so.

S is for the Single Market. “Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market,”
said Daniel Hannan, Brexiteer MEP, before the referendum. Absolutely everybody is now.

T is for Take Back Control. The greatest lie of them all? Quite possibly.
The hypnotic mantra was perfect for its audience: millions who – quite rightly – felt disenfranchised and anxious for their future. But lack of control over the EU wasn’t the issue; it was lack of control over a Westminster programme of austerity set by George Osborne.

U is for the Union. “If we vote to leave then I think the union will be stronger… I think when we vote to leave it will be clear that having voted to leave one union the last thing people in Scotland wanted to do is to break up another.” Michael Gove, BBC, 8 May 2016.

V is for Vote Leave. Otherwise known as Lie Central, the official campaign body for exiting the EU delivered a wonderful array of deceit, including the following:

“The EU’s supporters say, ‘We must have access to the single market’. Britain will have access to the single market after we vote Leave.”

“The idea that our trade will suffer... is silly.”

“Let’s give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week.”

“Taxpayers’ money should be spent on filling in potholes in Britain, rather than being squandered on foreign bridges.”

“If you are still wondering what it will look like if we came out, think about this... Lower taxes as a result of no longer having to pay into the EU budget.”

It really is an endless and unmitigated litany of rubbish.

W is for Will Of The People. It’s not now, and it’s debatable if it ever was. Latest polling suggests 45 per cent of people now want to Remain, versus 35 per cent who want to Leave and 22 per cent undecided. Even in the referendum itself, only 37 per cent of the electorate voted for Leave, the rest either voted Remain or not at all. Some Will Of The People.

X is for Xenophobia. In 2014, Nigel Farage laid it out on the line: “If you said to me, would I like to see over the next ten years a further five million people come into Britain and if that happened we’d all be slightly richer, I’d say I’d rather we weren’t slightly richer.” In March 2017: “If Brexit is a disaster, I will go and live abroad. I'll go and live somewhere else.” Such principles!

Y is for Youth Vote. More than 70 per cent of 18-24 year olds (the generation who will live with Brexit longer than any other) voted to Remain. By the time 29 March comes and we leave the EU, around 1.4m more young people will be of voting age. The idea that Brexit is the will of these people is a dangerous lie.

Z is for Zombie Government. Theresa May leads a government trapped between two warring factions; one side, the hard-Brexiteers, led by Jacob Rees-Mogg and on the other side the sane. Any pretence that the government is in control of the Brexit process is long dead. Meanwhile, all the domestic failings centred around George Osborne’s eight years of austerity – the failings that in large part caused Brexit in the first place – continue to drift, unaddressed. Whatever solution to Brexit we arrive at, it’s this that will be its legacy. A country more divided, fractious and disappointed than ever before in our history.


https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/articl...of-brexit-lies

Last edited by greenmount; 03.08.2020 at 10:02.
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Old 03.08.2020, 11:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Johnson finds himself in a very difficult position. He was pro EU, but so hell bent on becoming PM he had to get ERG on his side and the far right too.

He now knows that the EU will not compromise on the level playing field or on the Irish border. He also knows No Deal will be disastrous, and that a deal with Trump will cost the UK the NHS, workers' rights and agriculture and financial services, and that he will never be forgiven for this, and that other deals are not forthcoming or insignificant.

So watch this space- what will he do next? Some are predicting a massive U-turn
Why are you referring to the Irish border when this issues has already been resolved within the withdrawal agreement?

A U-turn is possible however I see the main factor for this as being the mass unemployment about to hit the UK due to the Coronavirus lockdown. A no deal Brexit could exacerbate an economy already reeling from Covid. Boris Johnson needs to stick to his guns though and understand that Coronavirus has had the same effect on everyone give or take.

The economic model the UK has will in any case need to be restructured in a post-Corona world so the best time to do it is together with withdrawal from the EU. The tell tale sign of Boris Johnson caving in or U-turning I believe will be if the UK's chief negotiator David Frost resigns his position before the end of the year.
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Old 03.08.2020, 14:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A British-German study uncovers huge changes in migration patterns of UK citizens since the
2016 British Referendum on the EU.

Well no surprise from this report.

Remember to click on - I'll do it later - to read the full article.

The Guardian - Brexit fuels brain drain as skilled Britons head to the EU
I think a large part of that is very low salaries in London compared to the cost of living.

You could say that's a result of the currency fluctuation caused by brexit. However, there's a case for saying that businesses should be paying mobile, highly skilled people internationally competitive salaries, and that really the exchange rate is just an excuse.

That's just my 2p from someone how left the UK after Brexit, having voted (despite a lot of misgivings) Brexit.
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Old 03.08.2020, 19:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Join Bath for Europe for an online event with Professor Michael Dougan, ‘The New Tories and their Extremist Brexit: What Comes Next?’, Wednesday 12th August, 6-7.30pm.

Michael Dougan is Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool and Joint Editor of Common Market Law Review – the world’s leading scientific journal for European legal studies. He is an expert in EU law, one of the leading lights in the pro-Remain/Rejoin campaign and a regular speaker on the future of the UK-EU relationship for Bath for Europe.

All are welcome at this free zoom event but please preregister via this link: https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZYkc-2ppj8tEtBzOYAwt2RWSnlXdJ6WmJdv
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Old 03.08.2020, 20:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Join Bath for Europe for an online event with Professor Michael Dougan, ‘The New Tories and their Extremist Brexit: What Comes Next?’, Wednesday 12th August, 6-7.30pm.

Michael Dougan is Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool and Joint Editor of Common Market Law Review – the world’s leading scientific journal for European legal studies. He is an expert in EU law, one of the leading lights in the pro-Remain/Rejoin campaign and a regular speaker on the future of the UK-EU relationship for Bath for Europe.

All are welcome at this free zoom event but please preregister via this link: https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZYkc-2ppj8tEtBzOYAwt2RWSnlXdJ6WmJdv
Thanks for reminding this Brexit-skeptical Brexit voter why he voted Brexit in the first place!
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Old 03.08.2020, 21:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Generally people who say what they believe the other want them to say rather than what they think are spineless. It would be terrible if friendships & relationships were built of a web of deceit, it's as if the person needs to pretend they are someone they are not so as to be liked.
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Ulterior motive is key, it's dishonest & lacks integrity regardless of reason.
I suppose you had no problems accepting Brexit politicians' lies. I posted some of them.
How about this ulterior motive? Was Brexit enough of a good reason to overlook other stuff? What about that web of deceit? Or do you apply this higher moral standard only to people you hang around with?

It was really difficult to understand each other on this one. You seem to imply that not hurting other people's feelings or not destroying your relations is the same thing as lying in a political campaign/consequently willingly accepting untruths, half-truths for achieving the greater goal i.e. Brexit.

How that fits into your theory?

I don't expect you to answer to this one. So FMF, before dissecting other people's posts perhaps you should think more of what you write and how uncompromising you are.

Last edited by greenmount; 03.08.2020 at 22:02.
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Old 03.08.2020, 21:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Join Bath for Europe for an online event with Professor Michael Dougan, ‘The New Tories and their Extremist Brexit: What Comes Next?’, Wednesday 12th August, 6-7.30pm.

Michael Dougan is Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool and Joint Editor of Common Market Law Review – the world’s leading scientific journal for European legal studies. He is an expert in EU law, one of the leading lights in the pro-Remain/Rejoin campaign and a regular speaker on the future of the UK-EU relationship for Bath for Europe.
It's hard to figure out which is more delusional the BREXITEERS expecting that the EU will disadvantage itself to given them a super deal or the Remainers expecting that Governments on Ireland, France, Denmark and possibly The Netherlands agreeing to hold referenda on the future of the UK within the EU...

The structure of the EU treaties and the Irish constitution in particular is such that there is no way around not holding a referendum on the issue in Ireland. No Irish government is ever going to want to open up that can of worms while a border on the island of Ireland exists. It would just cause too much internal unrest.
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Old 03.08.2020, 22:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

35000 gone today at HSBC
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Old 03.08.2020, 22:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I suppose you had no problems accepting Brexit politicians' lies. I posted some of them.
How about this ulterior motive? Was Brexit enough of a good reason to overlook other stuff? What about that web of deceit? Or do you apply this higher moral standard only to people you hang around with?

It was really difficult to understand each other on this one. You seem to imply that not hurting other people's feelings or not destroying your relations is the same thing as lying in a political campaign/consequently willingly accepting untruths, half-truths for achieving the greater goal i.e. Brexit.

How that fits into your theory?

I don't expect you to answer to this one. So FMF, before dissecting other people's posts perhaps you should think more of what you write and how uncompromising you are.
I was unable to vote, I knew the reality of the EU & was not interested in either sides propaganda. I don't like red tape, regulation or government interference with business, min wages, max hours or health & safety or taxation. The EU was never going to be for me.

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35000 gone today at HSBC
Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corporation now has a head office in the UK & is traded on the LSE but has very little to do with the UK or even Europe if you look at profits, They bought the 'Midland Bank' & changed the name to HSBC in The UK, irrelevant to BREXIT. One of the very few Banks that did not need rescuing in 2008.....
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