The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[CodPeace]

	Quote:	JackieH
	35000 gone today at HSBC

Wrong thread.
Coronavirus: HSBC to speed up 35,000 job cuts as profits slump

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	CodPeace
	Wrong thread. Coronavirus: HSBC to speed up 35,000 job cuts as profits slump

Nothing to do with Brexit. They are effectively a Chinese bank.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I was unable to vote, I knew the reality of the EU & was not interested in either sides propaganda. I don't like red tape, regulation or government interference with business, min wages, max hours or health & safety or taxation. The EU was never going to be for me. ...

Yeah, I get that and never had a problem with your views, however, mansplaining is uncouth. Perhaps it is really hard to resist the temptation on internet fora, however, it is rather unprincipled. You don't have to follow the trend here.

	Quote:	JackieH
	Join Bath for Europe for an online event with Professor Michael Dougan, ‘The New Tories and their Extremist Brexit: What Comes Next?’, Wednesday 12th August, 6-7.30pm. Michael Dougan is Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool and Joint Editor of Common Market Law Review – the world’s leading scientific journal for European legal studies. He is an expert in EU law, one of the leading lights in the pro-Remain/Rejoin campaign and a regular speaker on the future of the UK-EU relationship for Bath for Europe. All are welcome at this free zoom event but please preregister via this link:

Interesting, I din't know anything about Bath for Europe. Thanks for the links.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	greenmount
	I know you didn't refer to white lies in regards with MSM, but it is important to remind you how this discussion started in the first place. I personally think that well engineered propaganda campaigns are a separate thing.

Then why act as if I did? Don't.
Don't try to shove something down my throat I didn't even ask for. And since you mention mansplaining elsewhere, it wouldn't hurt if you stopped femsplaining.

Nor do I need reminding of something that didn't happen, it's you only who keeps returning to white lies.

	Quote:	greenmount
	MSM is not always doing a stelar job, however, I doubt that fringe media is any better.... Still don't get why you two are talking about Trump on this thread....

And pleeeeeze stop reminding people that they're off-topic. It's useless, annoying, and you are yourself among the frequent "offenders". White lies for example have nothing at all to do with Brexit.

</rant>

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Then why act as if I did? Don't. Don't try to shove something down my throat I didn't even ask for. And since you mention mansplaining elsewhere, it wouldn't hurt if you stopped femsplaining. Nor do I need reminding of something that didn't happen, it's you only who keeps returning to white lies. And pleeeeeze stop reminding people that they're off-topic. It's useless, annoying, and you are yourself among the frequent "offenders". White lies for example have nothing at all to do with Brexit. </rant>

Well, you yourself said it is an important topic. Anyways, perhaps we didn't follow the same line of thoughts here, but we talked about different things that's why I posted some links. My original observation was in regards with anecdotes about people having casual discussions with friends etc and whether they are relevant for how other people feel or think about an issue in general or not. Back there it was like someone else saying "My friends hate EU hence more people will hate EU". I don't know why anecdotes are brought here so often as an argument. OK, if there's any new party/movement like it was in UK etc I agree you can already assume there's going to be or already is at least a public debate on leaving EU or not, but then again why not mention that? Why not debate that? I only saw a lot of assumptions of someone here based on casual opinions rather than facts. Casual opinions of friends who might even be polite or non-confrontational or whatever. Let's not assume this or that and check official stats for instance. They still show a strong support for EU in Spain last time I checked. Somehow why the discussion started in the first place got lost.

As for the rest of your post, no, I don't do what you said, I am in the habit of defending my points of view, that's all. Politely.
Which I'll gladly stop doing here. But for the record it is because I'm rather tired of going in circles and being side tracked and I really want to stay polite, not to win any internet points here. What I had to say on the topic of Brexit or EU I already said I think. It's not a healthy debate here and I don't insist having it with people committed to misunderstand, and by that I don't refer to you. So let's agree to disagree and each to their own. There's not much to say anymore, seriously.
I hope other users will come along and make the debate more interesting.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	...I don't like red tape, regulation or government interference with business, min wages, max hours or health & safety or taxation.....

So basically you want your wealth and comfort to be built on the poverty and misery of others? You don't want people to be able to work in a safe environment. You don't care if people have to work 70+ hour weeks for miserable wages in dangerous environments as long as you have your comforts.

Fortunately even the deranged Johnson government doesn't agree with you.

[greenmount]

	Quote:
	So basically you want your wealth and comfort to be built on the poverty and misery of others? You don't want people to be able to work in a safe environment. You don't care if people have to work 70+ hour weeks for miserable wages in dangerous environments as long as you have your comforts.

Clearly a proof of higher integrity....


Yeah, I can do that too. I choose not to.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	So basically you want your wealth and comfort to be built on the poverty and misery of others? You don't want people to be able to work in a safe environment. You don't care if people have to work 70+ hour weeks for miserable wages in dangerous environments as long as you have your comforts. Fortunately even the deranged Johnson government doesn't agree with you.

I built most of my wealth by working 100 hours a week, just my own misery of running my own business. I left school at 16, set up my business at 19 anybody could do it but they only want to work 42 hours a week, so it's tough. I objected to being a higher rate taxpayer as a teenager, base rate was 34% when I started work then add NI.

As I said before the lefties are jealous of successful people, they also believe they 'deserve better' due to their high levels of education.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I built most of my wealth by working 100 hours a week, just my own misery of running my own business. I left school at 16, set up my business at 19 anybody could do it but they only want to work 42 hours a week, so it's tough. I objected to being a higher rate taxpayer as a teenager, base rate was 34% when I started work then add NI.

Working 100 hours for your own business on minimum wage, in terrible conditions? You had to in order to survive? We're again talking about different things I think.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Working 100 hours for your own business on minimal wage, in terrible conditions? You had to in order to survive?

My first full time job paid £25 a week which rose to £40 a week after 3 months, there was no minimum wage at the time.
I chose to work for myself & earn more money. It was my choice to work 15 hours a day 7 days a week, it paid off. My friends said I was mad leaving school at 16, they all stayed till 18 then went to University. They were pretty jealous that I had bought a flat & a Porsche 911 whilst they were still at university.

Most people stay in their comfort zones & don't push themselves, it's their problem not mine.

[gaburko]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Most people stay in their comfort zones & don't push themselves, it's their problem not mine.

This is true and I tend to agree. The problem though is that not all of us can be genetically, culturally, lucky and successful. It's just a fact of life, and where I stand currently is that the dog-eat-dog system (eg the US) is not what I'd like Europe to be. In fact, having a decent safety net, a decent society is a public good and good for literally everyone. Rich and not-so-rich. I'd rather live in a nice neighborhood which isn't neighboring a slum. I'd rather send my kids walking to school not fearing they'll get mugged on the way. There's a balance, of course, but overall, Europe is doing much much better than the US. And the Brexit essentially is a vote do you want to be more European or more American. The vote is more American and I think this is the wrong decision for Britain. personal opinion, obviously.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	gaburko
	This is true and I tend to agree. The problem though is that not all of us can be genetically, culturally, lucky and successful. It's just a fact of life, and where I stand currently is that the dog-eat-dog system (eg the US) is not what I'd like Europe to be. In fact, having a decent safety net, a decent society is a public good and good for literally everyone. Rich and not-so-rich. I'd rather live in a nice neighborhood which isn't neighboring a slum. I'd rather send my kids walking to school not fearing they'll get mugged on the way. There's a balance, of course, but overall, Europe is doing much much better than the US. And the Brexit essentially is a vote do you want to be more European or more American. The vote is more American and I think this is the wrong decision for Britain. personal opinion, obviously.

I think the British have far more in common with the US than the EU, they even speak the same language! I always favoured the UK becoming the 51st US State, then I believe in the American dream & without a degree I would never be able to get a US Green Card.

Allowing young kids walking to School is a Swiss reality, allow them to do that in the UK & social services will take your kids away.

[gaburko]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think the British have far more in common with the US than the EU, they even speak the same language!

That's what Trump wants you to believe Sorry, but Britain is practically irrelevant to the US. It's a nice story to spin and make the Germans and French nervous, but in reality, the US couldn't care less and the so-called "special relationship" is like the "special relationship" the USSR had with the small Eastern European countries during communism. Been there, seen that. But all the best, really. Eventually, Europe prefers a happy and friendly England out of the EU rather than a constantly grumpy party pooper.

[Tom1234]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think the British have far more in common with the US than the EU, they even speak the same language! I always favoured the UK becoming the 51st US State, then I believe in the American dream & without a degree I would never be able to get a US Green Card. Allowing young kids walking to School is a Swiss reality, allow them to do that in the UK & social services will take your kids away.

Social services may well get a call from a well-meaning but interfering busy-body but in reality your kids won't be taken away as there's no legal minimum age.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	gaburko
	That's what Trump wants you to believe Sorry, but Britain is practically irrelevant to the US. It's a nice story to spin and make the Germans and French nervous, but in reality, the US couldn't care less and the so-called "special relationship" is like the "special relationship" the USSR had with the small Eastern European countries during communism. Been there, seen that. But all the best, really. Eventually, Europe prefers a happy and friendly England out of the EU rather than a constantly grumpy party pooper.

I believed this 40 years before Trump became president.

I know we all assume Trump is hated, we will find out when the next election results are out, bit like everybody changed their minds on BREXIT, maybe, maybe not

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Most people stay in their comfort zones & don't push themselves, it's their problem not mine.

Of course it is your problem if you employ people, you have to respect labour law - re. wage, working conditions, legal holidays etc As for people being gelous for your success, no, that is definitely not your problem.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	gaburko
	This is true and I tend to agree. The problem though is that not all of us can be genetically, culturally, lucky and successful. It's just a fact of life, and where I stand currently is that the dog-eat-dog system (eg the US) is not what I'd like Europe to be. In fact, having a decent safety net, a decent society is a public good and good for literally everyone. Rich and not-so-rich. I'd rather live in a nice neighborhood which isn't neighboring a slum. I'd rather send my kids walking to school not fearing they'll get mugged on the way. There's a balance, of course, but overall, Europe is doing much much better than the US. And the Brexit essentially is a vote do you want to be more European or more American. The vote is more American and I think this is the wrong decision for Britain. personal opinion, obviously.

Speaking as a kid born and bread in a northern town who went on to Oxbridge i'd say very little of my success (if I am deemed successful) is genetic. It's mostly just desire and hunger to succeed.

Similarly, I look at some friends who earn in the 300-500k bracket, and they just have more hunger than me. I don't want to work as hard as they do, and am content with my lot as things stand.

From my perspective, there are things Europe could learn from the US and vice versa.

Certainly, I felt that (even after years of a tory government), the UK remained, and still remains a highly socialist country, with very high tax levels kicking in a very modest level. I didn't think that fairly rewarded me for the hard work I had put in to that point. Really - I didn't feel like I could be bothered anymore.

Similarly, I don't like the fact that people go without healthcare in the US. I'm not sure I want a society where students pick up quite so much debt at university either. But then again, if you try you can make it much bigger there....

For me, Switzerland has the best of both

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	Speaking as a kid born and bread in a northern town who went on to Oxbridge i'd say very little of my success (if I am deemed successful) is genetic. It's mostly just desire and hunger to succeed. Similarly, I look at some friends who earn in the 300-500k bracket, and they just have more hunger than me. I don't want to work as hard as they do, and am content with my lot as things stand. From my perspective, there are things Europe could learn from the US and vice versa. Certainly, I felt that (even after years of a tory government), the UK remained, and still remains a highly socialist country, with very high tax levels kicking in a very modest level. I didn't think that fairly rewarded me for the hard work I had put in to that point. Really - I didn't feel like I could be bothered anymore. Similarly, I don't like the fact that people go without healthcare in the US. I'm not sure I want a society where students pick up quite so much debt at university either. But then again, if you try you can make it much bigger there.... For me, Switzerland has the best of both

To prove my point about my lack of natural intelligence - it is of course "bred" not "bread"....

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Of course it is your problem if you employ people, you have to respect labour law - re. wage, working conditions, legal holidays etc As for people being gelous for your success, no, that is definitely not your problem.

A.I. will fix that problem, so not an issue going forward. I always employed the best person to do a job, usually the most expensive & certainly never the cheapest, but then I was after perfection which never comes cheap.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	A.I. will fix that problem, so not an issue going forward. I always employed the best person to do a job, usually the most expensive & certainly never the cheapest, but then I was after perfection which never comes cheap.

Amen to this.