The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[gaburko]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	Similarly, I don't like the fact that people go without healthcare in the US. I'm not sure I want a society where students pick up quite so much debt at university either. But then again, if you try you can make it much bigger there....

Sooo, you'd like a US with universal healthcare and cheaper public universities? In the US these are called communists, in England they are called socialists, in Europe we call them nothing as this is the default line of thinking

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	gaburko
	Sooo, you'd like a US with universal healthcare and cheaper public universities? In the US these are called communists, in England they are called socialists, in Europe we call them nothing as this is the default line of thinking

Not really, the UK has totally free healthcare & EHIC card free to all residents, this is not the standard, everywhere else you need to be paying into the system with NI contributions & that does not cover the full costs either.

The Socialists in the UK complain about waiting times, in France you co pay 20-30% without the long wait, it's an entitlement problem where someone else needs to pay.

[gaburko]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Not really, the UK has totally free healthcare

HickvonFrick used the US as an example and I referenced this, I am aware of the NHS. Bottom line is there's no perfect place, but we're relatively free to change the location should we decide we're better off elsewhere

[John William]

Just as an aside HickvonFrick, do you remember Herr Flick of the Gestapo in Allo, Allo ?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I believed this 40 years before Trump became president. I know we all assume Trump is hated, we will find out when the next election results are out, bit like everybody changed their minds on BREXIT, maybe, maybe not

Actually not, I don't assume he is hated because it was the same assumption that he's too extravagant to win first time he ran for presidency. And where are we now?

Food for thought, 4 years ago but I think we'll see the same story again....don't worry it's not a "leftie" article even if it's NYT

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/o...-admit-it.html

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	gaburko
	Sooo, you'd like a US with universal healthcare and cheaper public universities? In the US these are called communists, in England they are called socialists, in Europe we call them nothing as this is the default line of thinking

I'm happy with the price of UK universities, but not the funding mechanism.

I think students should pay a reasonable price for their education. c. 5-10k a year with a low cost loan seems fair. I don't want to see kids taking on the type of debt you see in the US, nor them taking on high interest loans like you see in the UK.

I also don't like the NHS. I think its inherently pretty inefficient and objectively delivers poor results. The Swiss model works well, is fairer, delivers high quality services and ensures that nobody is without basic care. Its probably too far down the line for the UK to change to a better model though. Especially as its a quasi-religion, and people there seem to think that the only alternative is the US model.

I'm no socialist. I believe in a capitalist society where people are rewarded for doing well (i.e. I do not believe in 40 or 50% tax levels, at least not unless you are super wealthy), but where younger people are viewed as something to invest in, rather than profit from, and where healthcare is a universal right.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	John William
	Just as an aside HickvonFrick, do you remember Herr Flick of the Gestapo in Allo, Allo ?

Not even nearly old enough!

[greenmount]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	I'm happy with the price of UK universities, but not the funding mechanism. I think students should pay a reasonable price for their education. c. 5-10k a year with a low cost loan seems fair. I don't want to see kids taking on the type of debt you see in the US, nor them taking on high interest loans like you see in the UK. I also don't like the NHS. I think its inherently pretty inefficient and objectively delivers poor results. The Swiss model works well, is fairer, delivers high quality services and ensures that nobody is without basic care. Its probably too far down the line for the UK to change to a better model though. Especially as its a quasi-religion, and people there seem to think that the only alternative is the US model. I'm no socialist. I believe in a capitalist society where people are rewarded for doing well (i.e. I do not believe in 40 or 50% tax levels, at least not unless you are super wealthy), but where younger people are viewed as something to invest in, rather than profit from, and where healthcare is a universal right.

According to some people on EF you're clearly a socialist!

[TonyClifton]

News emerging that the UK and Japan will imminently conclude a trade agreement that will allow seamless transition from the EU-Japan EPA that will no longer be valid when the UK leaves the EU at the end of this year.

Reports also suggest that the trade agreement will go beyond that agreed between Japan and the EU in some areas. This in spite some members on this forum, in a complete misunderstanding of how Most Favoured Nation clauses operate, suggesting that the EU would need to "approve" any trade deal between the UK and countries like Japan where the EU already has trade agreements in place

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	News emerging that the UK and Japan will imminently conclude a trade agreement that will allow seamless transition from the EU-Japan EPA that will no longer be valid when the UK leaves the EU at the end of this year. Reports also suggest that the trade agreement will go beyond that agreed between Japan and the EU in some areas. This in spite some members on this forum, in a complete misunderstanding of how Most Favoured Nation clauses operate, suggesting that the EU would need to "approve" any trade deal between the UK and countries like Japan where the EU already has trade agreements in place

Article here with details on the EU MFN clauses in various FTAs.

The challenge for the UK is in obtaining an MFN compliant agreement on services which comprise around 40% of UK exports to the EU, the article gives more detail on this.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	News emerging that the UK and Japan will imminently conclude a trade agreement that will allow seamless transition from the EU-Japan EPA that will no longer be valid when the UK leaves the EU at the end of this year. Reports also suggest that the trade agreement will go beyond that agreed between Japan and the EU in some areas. This in spite some members on this forum, in a complete misunderstanding of how Most Favoured Nation clauses operate, suggesting that the EU would need to "approve" any trade deal between the UK and countries like Japan where the EU already has trade agreements in place

These would be the reports you read in the Dandy and the Beno... go read the actual trade agreements.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	These would be the reports you read in the Dandy and the Beno... go read the actual trade agreements.

Case in point, Fintan O'Toole here will be telling us next that an Irish referendum is needed to approve the UK-Japan trade deal

[JackieH]

In the meantime, Duncan-Smith and co are now saying that the amazing 'oven ready deal' they concocted, approved, voted for, signed with EU - is somehow favouring the EU and that they are no happy with it. And only days after they voted to stop the HoC and MPs from debating any deal.


It has been said before, but YOU TRULY COULD NOT MAKE IT UP

[squeezethecroc]

	Quote:	JackieH
	In the meantime, Duncan-Smith and co...

Listening to James O'Brian on LBC to other day, I learnt that Ian Duncan Smith insisted on always being referred to with his whole name, including his middle name Duncan. According to James O'Brian he hoped that this would make him seem bigger, posher and altogether more important.

	Quote:	squeezethecroc
	Listening to James O'Brian on LBC to other day, I learnt that Ian Duncan Smith insisted on always being referred to with his whole name, including his middle name Duncan. According to James O'Brian he hoped that this would make him seem bigger, posher and altogether more important.

I'll bet he likes people to spell the "Iain" part correctly, too...

But to be fair, if he wanted to sound posh and grand, wouldn't he insist on everybody acknowledging his knighthood? Problem is, then they would call him "Sir George", Iain being his middle name. Duncan is part of his surname -- Duncan Smith, a double-barrelled (but not hyphenated) surname. His father had the same surname.

[JackieH]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...0Kyes16qGe-hRw

[TonyClifton]

It is really looking evermore likely that the the UK-Japanese FTA will go beyond that agreed between the EU and Japan! After years of being told that "only trading blocs can get good trade deals" or nonsense like "the EU will have to approve any deals made between the UK and countries that already have trade agreements in place with the EU", this could be the first real success story of Brexit! One always thought the argument illogical that an individual country couldn't get a trade deal better tailored to her economy rather than having to take into account the needs of 28 very different countries.

I expect the argument will now pivot to finding fault with the expected benefits of the trade agreement. "It's only £15 billion a year"

https://www.facebook.com/39591219045...005684245/?d=n

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53697547

[marton]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	I'm not Falsify MSM, Inc. In fact that's what real journalism is for. Like ksdk.com on the McCloskeys. The first two are influenza outbreaks, Wuhan virus, another suggestion, follows the same pattern. MERS isn't the virus but the disease it causes. German measles is colloquial, "official" name (to call it that) is rubella. And that's just from memory, there's bound to be many more. To put it short, there is no general naming scheme, therefore no officially correct name. But it's Trump's suggestion, therefore it's racist to call Covid-19 "China virus". As if China didn't consist of many, probably dozens, individual nations and ethnicities.

Trump is now calling it the "China Plague"?

	Quote:
	Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump More Testing, which is a good thing (we have the most in the world), equals more Cases, which is Fake News Gold. They use Cases to demean the incredible job being done by the great men & women of the U.S. fighting the China Plague! 2:33 PM · Aug 11, 2020

Anybody remember why this is in the Brexit thread?

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	squeezethecroc
	Listening to James O'Brian on LBC to other day, I learnt that Ian Duncan Smith insisted on always being referred to with his whole name, including his middle name Duncan. According to James O'Brian he hoped that this would make him seem bigger, posher and altogether more important.

It's not his middle name!

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	It is really looking evermore likely that the the UK-Japanese FTA will go beyond that agreed between the EU and Japan! After years of being told that "only trading blocs can get good trade deals" or nonsense like "the EU will have to approve any deals made between the UK and countries that already have trade agreements in place with the EU", this could be the first real success story of Brexit! One always thought the argument illogical that an individual country couldn't get a trade deal better tailored to her economy rather than having to take into account the needs of 28 very different countries. I expect the argument will now pivot to finding fault with the expected benefits of the trade agreement. "It's only £15 billion a year" https://www.facebook.com/39591219045...005684245/?d=n https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53697547

Too soon for a victory dance, need to wait until there are signatures on paper.
The whole thing could collapse.