The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Mikers]

	Quote:	JackieH
	You gave your interpretation of the reason why people voted to leave. Not quite the same as a positive outcome of Brexit.

Are you completely bananas ? I gave a list of absolute first class benefits including cheese, sausages and free speeding and your claiming these are not benefits ?

Whatever you are smoking, I’ll have some.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	marton
	As someone with both CZ and GB nationalities, I see no parallel or commonalities between the "velvet revolution" and Brexit. How many UK leavers were beaten or killed?

Thank you. That is a very good item for that list! Big change, no bloodshed.

[JackieH]

see points 2 and 5 - let's hope.

Forgot no 10. - which should be much higher on the list. Threaten the Union.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	marton
	As someone with both CZ and GB nationalities, I see no parallel or commonalities between the "velvet revolution" and Brexit. How many UK leavers were beaten or killed?

So you have a German (I think?) name, CZ and GB nationality, and live in Switzerland - very international!

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	RufusB
	Not just letters. Emails and MSN too. Keep up. The electoral roll does that, devolved to councils. Also if you are registered with a GP, as most folk are, then no problem. Everyone over 16 is on the HMRC database - that's pretty centralised - and can be easily cross refd with passports/driving licenses. A centralised database would be pretty big brother, no? I thought folk were against that on here. Besides everyone with a phone has voluntarily GPSd themselves anyway.

Electoral roll registration is optional, and lots of people aren't eligible to vote - so that's no good.

Lots of people don't visit the doctor and aren't registered, or have moved recently, so GPs are no good.

HMRC - they certainly don't know where lots of people live.

Passports and driving licences are optional too. Lots of people don't travel abroad. Lots of people don't drive.

Personally, even as someone with decidedly libertarian views, I don't think the state knowing where you live is particularly big brother. Its kind of must-know - as we can see now.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	Mikers
	I did.

Me too

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Here is a short list, and each can of course be discussed individually- of project fear which have turned out, very quickly, to be project reality 1. tariffs for trade with EU- we were promised none. 2. NI border and current very difficult situation in NI 3. Fishing rights 4. Financial Services 5. Security/terrorism cooperation 6. Striking so called New Trade Deals 7. UK / EU qualification equivalence 8. Huge staff shortages in the NHS and care, in the middle of a pandemic + staff in agriculture 9. Erasmus

1. There aren't any

2. What about it exactly?

3. Quite a bit returned now and returned in full after 5 years. So an advantage of Brexit. But doesn't actually matter as peanuts.

4. Non access would hurt EU more than vice versa. London is bigger than rEU combined. We have the power here. It also doesn't matter according to my numerous colleagues in finance. Quite possibly we don't want a deal, or only want a thin deal.

5. Not sure to be honest.

6. Yes, they are being done

7. Who cares? Its up the employer in the vast majority of cases to recognise your qualifications.

8. We can let in who we want. Leaving the EU doesn't prevent us from hiring workers from the EU. An advantage

9. We choose to get rid of that and replace it with a similar scheme. An advantage. Switzerland left it to, but you dont seem to mind that.

Ultimately, we now a full democracy and no longer subject to laws written by an unelected body. Which is a good thing.

[JackieH]

Are you absolutely sure? Not quite the reality as I and many see it.

Will just pick up on one- 8.- we can let in who we want- the problem is, they don't want to come any more- hence the massive shortage.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Are you absolutely sure? Not quite the reality as I and many see it. Will just pick up on one- 8.- we can let in who we want- the problem is, they don't want to come any more- hence the massive shortage.

There's lots of people from developing countries who would love to work in any Western European country, UK included. I'm sure hiring from India, etc. would be quite easy.

I don't see why you don't campaign for your country to join the EU - the deals aren't all that different.

[amogles]

	Quote:	JackieH
	I am surprised no-one has come up with a compilation of things promised which have not materialised through this 'deal'. I can think of quite a few- but having asked the question- I think it is better, for a while at least- to wait for others to answer it.

Remainers were saying Brexit would bring on the end of western civilization, an outbreak of super gonorrea, and a shortage of toilet rolls.

Not necessarily in that order.

What materialized is that we were kicked out of Erasmus and can't bring sandwiches to Holland.

Sounds like a good trade-in to me.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Remainers were saying Brexit would bring on the end of western civilization, an outbreak of super gonorrea, and a shortage of toilet rolls. Not necessarily in that order. What materialized is that we were kicked out of Erasmus and can't bring sandwiches to Holland. Sounds like a good trade-in to me.

If I understand correctly, we can still bring vegan sandwiches to Holland. Only dairy and meat is excluded

[RufusB]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Are you completely bananas ? I gave a list of absolute first class benefits including cheese, sausages and free speeding and your claiming these are not benefits ?

I'd rather have kept my ability (and my kids' ability) to move freely within the EU etc.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Thank you. That is a very good item for that list! Big change, no bloodshed.

No bloodshed before either. False equivalency.

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	Electoral roll registration is optional, and lots of people aren't eligible to vote - so that's no good. Lots of people don't visit the doctor and aren't registered, or have moved recently, so GPs are no good. HMRC - they certainly don't know where lots of people live. Passports and driving licences are optional too. Lots of people don't travel abroad. Lots of people don't drive. Personally, even as someone with decidedly libertarian views, I don't think the state knowing where you live is particularly big brother. Its kind of must-know - as we can see now.

Council tax isn't optional and it's on the same form. It's very good.

The HMRC do know - if you are employed, they know. If you are collecting any kind of benefits, they know. If you have registered the birth of a child, they know. Everyone at 16 gets a NI number. If they want to be paid in any other way than dodgy cash in hand, the HMRC knows.

Enough people drive and have passports.

There is enough overlap with all of these agencies. Not sure why you are hellbent on sqying otherwise.

Of course GPs are good - pretty much every registered with one and if you move you re register, though tbh GPs aren't that concerned if you don't move too far away and will keep you.

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	1. There aren't any 2. What about it exactly? 3. Quite a bit returned now and returned in full after 5 years. So an advantage of Brexit. But doesn't actually matter as peanuts. 4. Non access would hurt EU more than vice versa. London is bigger than rEU combined. We have the power here. It also doesn't matter according to my numerous colleagues in finance. Quite possibly we don't want a deal, or only want a thin deal. 5. Not sure to be honest. 6. Yes, they are being done 7. Who cares? Its up the employer in the vast majority of cases to recognise your qualifications. 8. We can let in who we want. Leaving the EU doesn't prevent us from hiring workers from the EU. An advantage 9. We choose to get rid of that and replace it with a similar scheme. An advantage. Switzerland left it to, but you dont seem to mind that. Ultimately, we now a full democracy and no longer subject to laws written by an unelected body. Which is a good thing.

7 is massively important - see the increased shortage of skilled professionals happen as well qualified and experienced individuals are forced through more bureaucratic hoops. It also makes your answer to 8 rather problematic.

	Quote:	JackieH
	Are you absolutely sure? Not quite the reality as I and many see it. Will just pick up on one- 8.- we can let in who we want- the problem is, they don't want to come any more- hence the massive shortage.

This.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Remainers were saying Brexit would bring on the end of western civilization, an outbreak of super gonorrea, and a shortage of toilet rolls. Not necessarily in that order. What materialized is that we were kicked out of Erasmus and can't bring sandwiches to Holland. Sounds like a good trade-in to me.

We weren't kicked out of Erasmus - we walked. Turkey is in Erasmus, and Russia is a "partner country".

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	RufusB
	7 is massively important - see the increased shortage of skilled professionals happen as well qualified and experienced individuals are forced through more bureaucratic hoops. It also makes your answer to 8 rather problematic.

Explain in more detail. Which qualifications exactly are affected and how does it matter.

[RufusB]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	There's lots of people from developing countries who would love to work in any Western European country, UK included. I'm sure hiring from India, etc. would be quite easy. I don't see why you don't campaign for your country to join the EU - the deals aren't all that different.

Not if you want to guarantee qualification equivalencies etc. Take dentistry - can't just hire from India. Not automatic equivalence. Qualified Teacher Status from the UK (apart from Scotland because Highers) meant you were qualified anywhere in EU with minimal hoops etc. Not any more. The same will be likely true for international students in both directions.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	We weren't kicked out of Erasmus - we walked. Turkey is in Erasmus, and Russia is a "partner country".

The adventurous English exchange students always ended up teaching ton of colleagues English, on top of their program..without having much chance to soak up the local culture/language, imho. I am not 100% against it, but it's just a cheap way to draft from lower income academic environments and make them even less competitive. Besides I wrote already what I think about interchangeable globalizing edu modules. I think there will be improvements.

[JackieH]

As for tariffs- that is a bit more complex than that. There are so many issues here and I do not have the energy tonight to even begin. Perhaps someone will oblige. Basically two main issues- re-exporting products not 100% British, be they cheese, meat products, or anything manufactured. And two- no tariffs is based on the Deal, and the Deal is based on a level playing field. Cut down on standards, or workers' rights (as alread planned, see Dan Hannan and co)- and tariffs will kick in.

Agree that loss of Erasmus can be to some extent mitigated. And I forgot No. 11- the UK also volontarily refused a Clause which would have allowed musicians to travel to EU to work, Visa free. What a dreadful shame I'd say, MusikChick.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	RufusB
	Council tax isn't optional and it's on the same form. It's very good. The HMRC do know - if you are employed, they know. If you are collecting any kind of benefits, they know. If you have registered the birth of a child, they know. Everyone at 16 gets a NI number. If they want to be paid in any other way than dodgy cash in hand, the HMRC knows. Enough people drive and have passports. There is enough overlap with all of these agencies. Not sure why you are hellbent on sqying otherwise. Of course GPs are good - pretty much every registered with one and if you move you re register, though tbh GPs aren't that concerned if you don't move too far away and will keep you.

To give you my own personal example at the point of leaving the UK in early 2020:

- I didn't register for a GP in the 6 years I was in London (2014-2020) as I never needed to go. Lots of young people move frequently and don't always register or de-register.

- I don't drive, passed my test at 18 in sixth form and never updated my address from my parents

- I had a passport - but it was 8 years old and the address wasn't up to date

- I never bothered to tell my employer when I moved, so they were presumably giving HRMC the wrong address

- My wife paid the council tax bills as she owned the house (and had done before I met her).

- I didn't register to vote, as there was no election, and I was planning on moving abroad. I knew that you are only entitled to vote as an expat in the last place you are registered - which for my previous address was a marginal seat - so I didn't register at my wife's address in order that I could keep my vote in that marginal seat after the move (although obviously didn't use it while living at my wife's). Bending the rules perhaps but legal - the guidance is clear that its the last place you are registered.

Granted, most people will have given their address at some point. But there will likely be loads of old addresses still on file. There's probably 3 or 4 wrong addresses for me on file.

[RufusB]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	Explain in more detail. Which qualifications exactly are affected and how does it matter.

See below. Also medicine, pretty much any PhD etc, and I imagine pretty much any other professional qualifications. Tell you what, find some that aren't affected. How does it matter? I'm close to calling troll...

	Quote:	RufusB
	Not if you want to guarantee qualification equivalencies etc. Take dentistry - can't just hire from India. Not automatic equivalence. Qualified Teacher Status from the UK (apart from Scotland because Highers) meant you were qualified anywhere in EU with minimal hoops etc. Not any more. The same will be likely true for international students in both directions.

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	To give you my own personal example at the point of leaving the UK in early 2020: - I didn't register for a GP in the 6 years I was in London (2014-2020) as I never needed to go. Lots of young people move frequently and don't always register or de-register. - I don't drive, passed my test at 18 in sixth form and never updated my address from my parents - I had a passport - but it was 8 years old and the address wasn't up to date - I never bothered to tell my employer when I moved, so they were presumably giving HRMC the wrong address - My wife paid the council tax bills as she owned the house (and had done before I met her). - I didn't register to vote, as there was no election, and I was planning on moving abroad. I knew that you are only entitled to vote as an expat in the last place you are registered - which for my previous address was a marginal seat - so I didn't register at my wife's address in order that I could keep my vote in that marginal seat after the move. Bending the rules perhaps but legal. Granted, most people will have given their address at some point. But there will likely be loads of old addresses still on file.

Well that's you admitting to some pretty shoddy and rather daft practices. If your wife didn't put your name on the council tax form (assuming you were over 18 at the time) I'd be very suprised. Or was she paying a single person rate whilst married/ cohabiting?

Not updating your employer with your new address is just daft.

What about your bank account? Credit card? Phone bill? Need proof for a contract.

I think you'll find you are the exception, not the norm.

[marton]

Deliveries of fresh Scottish seafood to the EU have been halted until 18 January, after post-Brexit problems with health checks, IT systems, and customs documents caused a huge backlog.

The industry’s biggest logistics provider, DFDS, pointed to delays regarding health certificates, issues with the IT system interface between the group and local authorities, and incorrect or missing customs documentation from customers.

New Brexit rules require every box of seafood and fish to be offloaded from lorries and inspected by vets before it leaves Scotland. It has taken business owners five hours per lorry to obtain a health certificate, which is required to apply for other customs paperwork.

No worries, it will be fixed soon