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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #29061  
Old 27.01.2021, 09:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It appears to me that the EU countries had some commitments from the vaccine manufacturers, that now they are struggling to meet. The EU is suspicious that the stated reasons for the delays are not realistic.

So they are looking for guarantees that the problems are realistic and that production is not being diverted to others, despite binding commitments to EU countries.

What we may be seeing is the greed of big Pharma being called to task.
So the AstraZeneca boss has shed some light on it - the EU signed their contract three months after the UK (https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...urope-12200035) so the supply chain problems for the UK had a three month lead time to be fixed. The EU's supply chain is 3 months behind. So its not Brexit, its contractual timing.

The question really is whether in a situation where someone needs item X but it is being given to person Y because they have signed a contract with company C to deliver it to them, it is then acceptable for the person to say "we don't care about your contract - you deliver to me first and the others can wait, regardless of any agreements".

If this is okay, then what the EU is doing is ok. Personally, I am not really comfortable with it because although they must take care of the countries in the bloc, they are demanding what will effectively result in the overridding of an agreement.
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  #29062  
Old 27.01.2021, 09:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

As more details emerge from the AstraZeneca/EU dealings the more apparent the failings of the EU become. It's almost the perfect example of what is wrong with the EU.

A deal had almost been struck between AstraZeneca and several EU countries when the EU commission demanded to take over negotiations. They then spent two months in talks going over the small print that actually led to no material changes in the contract. In doing so they were pushed further back in the queue and didn't even get a better price.

It rather undermines the argument that being part of a large trading bloc gets better deals. Also demonstrates once again, that whilst the EU like to appear tough, they have a very soft underbelly.
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  #29063  
Old 27.01.2021, 09:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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As more details emerge from the AstraZeneca/EU dealings the more apparent the failings of the EU become. It's almost the perfect example of what is wrong with the EU.

A deal had almost been struck between AstraZeneca and several EU countries when the EU commission demanded to take over negotiations. They then spent two months in talks going over the small print that actually led to no material changes in the contract. In doing so they were pushed further back in the queue and didn't even get a better price.

It rather undermines the argument that being part of a large trading bloc gets better deals. Also demonstrates once again, that whilst the EU like to appear tough, they have a very soft underbelly.
A larger trading bloc can of course get better deals. If it has a negotiation strategy. As an EU citizen, I feel pretty bad about this. How many lives will this cost?
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  #29064  
Old 27.01.2021, 09:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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100000 deaths and no end in sight- and farming, fishing, business on its knees- and it is not a disaster? Sorry- but really ?!?

.
You can't blame the U.K. government for everything.

A fair number of those deaths can be attributed to high levels of obesity and a generally unhealthy life-style for British people.

The U.K. already has the lowest life-expectancy in Western Europe so COVID was already going to be a bigger problem in the U.K.

PHE study shows obesity can raise risk of Covid death by 90pc
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  #29065  
Old 27.01.2021, 09:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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no clubs, no sport apart from walking and cycling.
Sounds exactly like my childhood.

Tom
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  #29066  
Old 27.01.2021, 09:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A larger trading bloc can of course get better deals. If it has a negotiation strategy. As an EU citizen, I feel pretty bad about this. How many lives will this cost?
I think at some point the member states will work that out. I'm sure it will have repercussions. Belgium's health minister Maggie De Block for example said negotiating outside the all-EU alliance is “unreasonable.”. Angela Merkel forced Germany's health minister Jens Spahn to handover vaccine negotiation to the EU. This level of ideology has and will cost lives.
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  #29067  
Old 27.01.2021, 10:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think at some point the member states will work that out. I'm sure it will have repercussions. Belgium's health minister Maggie De Block for example said negotiating outside the all-EU alliance is “unreasonable.”. Angela Merkel forced Germany's health minister Jens Spahn to handover vaccine negotiation to the EU. This level of ideology has and will cost lives.
How will it cost lives?
The total number of vaccine doses delivered stays the same.?
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  #29068  
Old 27.01.2021, 10:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Here's one of the busiest trade routes bypassing the UK already.

Name:  Irish trade routes.jpg
Views: 238
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  #29069  
Old 27.01.2021, 13:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Here's one of the busiest trade routes bypassing the UK already.

Attachment 141204
It’s a bit strange that it does not show the RotterdamDublin links as the biggest RoRo was listed to operate there.

https://afloat.ie/port-news/dublin-p...ings-to-europe
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  #29070  
Old 27.01.2021, 13:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think at some point the member states will work that out. I'm sure it will have repercussions. Belgium's health minister Maggie De Block for example said negotiating outside the all-EU alliance is “unreasonable.”. Angela Merkel forced Germany's health minister Jens Spahn to handover vaccine negotiation to the EU. This level of ideology has and will cost lives.
I am absolutely sure it will have repercussions. But not just on EU countries.

We are at a very delicate stage now, as an island- with all access in and out needing to pass via EU ports, customs and transport systems. And also beginning to test the 'level' playing fields Johnosn signed up to for this Deal. Beginning with allowing the use of pesticides not allowed in EU, now with workers' rights- and many more. Which will lead to either - high tariffs being applied on UK exports- and possibly (what ERG always wanted of course) the scrapping of this thin, bad Deal- and No Deal.

So the vaccine issue does not happen in a vacuum, but with a very wide ranging background, lined with a myriad of difficulties- for BOTH sides, but probably much more for isolated UK- which is not likely to get support from Big Brother (gone) in the USA.

Last edited by JackieH; 27.01.2021 at 14:28.
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  #29071  
Old 27.01.2021, 20:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Now the EU are demanding that vaccines produced in the UK get exported to the EU. Boris Johnson has wisely kept out of this argument until now. Who would have thought just a few weeks into Brexit we have an example where the EU now needs the UK more than the UK need the EU, you couldn’t make it up!!!
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  #29072  
Old 27.01.2021, 20:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Where have the Pfizer vaccines come from I wonder- the UK? Following your logic, they should not ahve been exported from Belgium to UK then (especially has based on EU research and funds, if I am not mistaken).

If you have a contract with a firm with multiple sites in multiple locations- your contract is with the Firm, not the location. Products made by a Private Business in France does not make said product is French- but a product of that Private Business. Or Switzerland, or UK, etc, etc.

Last edited by JackieH; 27.01.2021 at 20:38.
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  #29073  
Old 27.01.2021, 20:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If you have a contract with a firm with multiple sites in multiple locations- your contract is with the Firm, not the location. Products made by a Private Business in France does not make said product is French- but a product of that Private Business. Or Switzerland, or UK, etc, etc.
The contract is likely with a local subsidiary & not the holding company. I think all the vaccine makers are public companies that are owned by individual investors & investment funds. Private companies are generally family controlled, which is something different.
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  #29074  
Old 27.01.2021, 21:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Where have the Pfizer vaccines come from I wonder- the UK? Following your logic, they should not ahve been exported from Belgium to UK then (especially has based on EU research and funds, if I am not mistaken).

If you have a contract with a firm with multiple sites in multiple locations- your contract is with the Firm, not the location. Products made by a Private Business in France does not make said product is French- but a product of that Private Business. Or Switzerland, or UK, etc, etc.
Not at all, the UK signed its contract with Pfizer in good time, why should the UK suffer (or rather the very elderly in the UK who have already had a dose of the Pfizer vaccine) for the EU's mistake?
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  #29075  
Old 27.01.2021, 23:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

but that was your comment

''Now the EU are demanding that vaccines produced in the UK get exported to the EU.'' either geography is important, or it is not.

Last edited by JackieH; 28.01.2021 at 00:35.
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  #29076  
Old 28.01.2021, 00:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The contract is likely with a local subsidiary & not the holding company. I think all the vaccine makers are public companies that are owned by individual investors & investment funds. Private companies are generally family controlled, which is something different.
The EU is asking AZ to dare publishing the contract. To which AZ is refusing. Clearly something is fishy. Did they make contradictory promises to two governments?

What's very clear from the EU viewpoint is that if AZ can't meet its obligations with the EU while at the same time it ships vaccines to another country, then it is liable for not doing its best to supply the vaccines to the EU. If this is the case and the EU retaliates by imposing export controls until the company meets its contract, then it is a very fair move. The UK government could then do the same, but if Bojo hasn't spoken out it is because he knows he has the most to lose from such a move - no BioNTech or Moderna vaccines for the UK, and in addition AZ still needs EU components for its UK production, hence his reference to 'friends' in the EU in this topic.

The EU bet most on BioNTech, and rightly so because it has shown the best results (I rather get any vaccine at all, but let's face it, if I were given the choice I'd go for BioNTech or Moderna without hesitation given their published results). The UK can't have the cake again: it has got its fair share of BioNTech and Moderna vaccines from the EU, so it would be very fair to give AZ vaccines to the EU, if the contract of AZ indicates that it should do so.

Here's what a German polician said today:

“People in the United Kingdom are vaccinated with a very good vaccine produced in Europe, supported by European money,” said Peter Liese, a German MEP in Angela Merkel’s CDU party, referring to the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine.

“If there is anyone thinking that European citizens would accept that we give this high quality vaccine to the United Kingdom and would accept to be treated as second class by a UK-based company, I think the only consequence can be to immediately stop the export of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. And then we are in the middle of a trade war. So the company and the UK better think twice.”
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  #29077  
Old 28.01.2021, 08:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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We are at a very delicate stage now, as an island- with all access in and out needing to pass via EU ports, customs and transport systems.
Just like Switzerland, then.

Tom
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Old 28.01.2021, 08:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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“If there is anyone thinking that European citizens would accept that we give this high quality vaccine to the United Kingdom and would accept to be treated as second class by a UK-based company, I think the only consequence can be to immediately stop the export of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. And then we are in the middle of a trade war. So the company and the UK better think twice.”
The UK are buying the vaccine on commercial terms, it's not being given as a present.The AZ vaccine is being sold at cost, so in some way given away as there is no profit.
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  #29079  
Old 28.01.2021, 09:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The EU bet most on BioNTech, and rightly so because it has shown the best results (I rather get any vaccine at all, but let's face it, if I were given the choice I'd go for BioNTech or Moderna without hesitation given their published results). The UK can't have the cake again: it has got its fair share of BioNTech and Moderna vaccines from the EU, so it would be very fair to give AZ vaccines to the EU, if the contract of AZ indicates that it should do so.
Nope, the EU messed that up too.

EU to order more Pfizer vaccine after declining earlier offer

https://www.reuters.com/article/heal...-idUSKBN28R19D
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Old 28.01.2021, 10:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Just like Switzerland, then.

Tom
Except Switzerland is mostly part of the single market which eliminates a lot of the checks and controls that are now causing problems at the UK/EU borders.
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