The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Dinivan
	Do you think anyone in the EU cares anymore about what Britons think? They're out. They're no longer EU citizens. The EU position is very reasonable. AZ said it was going to do its best to deliver a certain amount of jabs. Then they say they're gonna deliver !75%! fewer vaccines, and they blame it on 'bad luck', literally. Fair enough the EU says, but have they really done their best to meet their contract? In particular, has AZ shipped vaccines abroad? And also, did the AZ contract signed with the EU include the UK plants which were indeed partly financed by the EU? It's a very reasonable request to want answers to those questions.

No, I dont think the EU cares very much for any UK position, but caring and then intervening on a contractual agreement are different activities.

It has similarities to the way medical companies around the world spend billions on research to produce drugs, e.g. Viagra and patent it to protect the R&D cost while they recoup it. This works in most of the world except for example China where they say "we don't give a toss pal" and produce copies of it anyway and sell it and the Chinese government says "fine by us". The rest of the world finds this unacceptable. The EU should not (in my opinion) be following a strikingly similar principle.

[RufusB]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Ah thanks, yes, of course, I meant to say it is not a State Run company- it is of course a Public Limited Company.

I meant the assertion that the EU gave the money to the UK... did you mean the UK gov't? There's no sense in giving money to the govt, they don't own or run AZ. Paying AZ partly in advance so they can invest in the necesssry lines, staff and equipment in order to be able to massively ramp up production... that is what the UK did when they placed the order, enabling AZ to get cracking. If the EU were late/reluctant to do the same then it's not AZs fault. They are a business after all. It's like getting annoyed that a shop wants you to oay before you take the goods off the premises.

	Quote:	Dinivan
	In other news, apparently AZ is now willing to publish most of the contract. It is also backtracking from its claim, and it may be able to supply the 80 million jabs (or close to) that it had early promised

Probably because the UK sites are going flat out and they've sorted the issues at EU sites.

[JackieH]

‘The EU is investing €336m (£297m) in AstraZeneca in return for 400m doses. But not all of the money has been paid to the pharmaceutical company so EU lawyers are examining whether there has been a breach of contract.’

the reason the Contracts are paramount in this case- as without seeing said contracts- it is impossible for anyone to decide the rights and wrongs here.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	JackieH
	‘The EU is investing €336m (£297m) in AstraZeneca in return for 400m doses. But not all of the money has been paid to the pharmaceutical company so EU lawyers are examining whether there has been a breach of contract.’ the reason the Contracts are paramount in this case- as without seeing said contracts- it is impossible for anyone to decide the rights and wrongs here.

Probably the best thing is AZ return the money to the EU & use all the does the UK wants & sell the rest to whoever wants them.

[RufusB]

Well the EU seems to be keen to play tit-for-tat. But it's a bit like being shitty with your neighbour because Amazon fulfilled their order but not yours (which you placed much later and argued about the price beforehand and didn't use Prime for ).

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	RufusB
	Well the EU seems to be keen to play tit-for-tat. But it's a bit like being shitty with your neighbour because Amazon fulfilled their order but not yours (which you placed much later and argued about the price beforehand and didn't use Prime for ).

The EU behaves like a typical EF member in the complaints section

[TonyClifton]

Remarkable what's going on. The EU Commission is having a slow motion train crash whilst the member states watch on on horror. When are they going to act?

Now after spending the past 4 years telling everyone that will listen that there can never be a hard border on the island of Ireland they're introducing border checks within a month of Brexit taking place without informing either Irish or UK governments what precedent does it set? How is this going to look internationally, especially to the new US President?

Not to mention what it means for international investment, surely business will think twice if they're this willing to torpedo supply chains? Astonishing! We all knew the EU was bureaucratic, but after 4 years of appearing so calm and organized, they now look incompetent and, dare I say it, spiteful.

EU doing now more for the Brexit cause than any slogan on the side of a bus!

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	Yes it is. From the UK government...:

What the UK writes about Switzerland is irrelevant.

This isn't the first time some nonsense claim from the UK gets quoted. People should print this out and hang it over their bed.

	Quote:
	We are part of the single market but not in customs union.

Nope. Switzerland has access to the EEA thanks to the Bilaterale, which comes with certain requirements, but it's not a member. There's also no such thing as "mostly a member", as you wrote a bit earlier, it's yes or no.

Here's admin.ch:

	Quote:	SECO
	In order to facilitate the participation of the EFTA States in the EU's internal market, the EFTA States and the EU negotiated the Agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA). With the exception of Switzerland, all EFTA States ratified the EEA Agreement.

[Dinivan]

	Quote:	RufusB
	Well the EU seems to be keen to play tit-for-tat. But it's a bit like being shitty with your neighbour because Amazon fulfilled their order but not yours (which you placed much later and argued about the price beforehand and didn't use Prime for ).

It's not a matter of when an order was placed, but of what was contractually agreed on. Your example equating life saving vaccines to an amazon package is ridiculous

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Probably the best thing is AZ return the money to the EU & use all the does the UK wants & sell the rest to whoever wants them.

You don't understand. The orders have already been placed by those who want them. AZ has to recoup the investment, if the EU doesn't buy them nobody else will.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Dinivan
	You don't understand. The orders have already been placed by those who want them. AZ has to recoup the investment, if the EU doesn't buy them nobody else will.

They won't have a problem selling them at cost, the world needs vaccines.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The EU behaves like a typical EF member in the complaints section

More like a divorced couple who went bitter and spiteful because divorce is not what they imagined. They wouldn't share custody of the kids and would pay an awful amount of money to lawyer sharks instead of working things out for the greater good. But they're both posting memes and photos on social media where they appear "free" and "reinvented" and "happy"....

[marton]

@TonyClifton

Actually, the opposite the EU is not doing more for the Brexit cause.
The EU is demonstrating that the UK has moved to a cold and lonely place with no strong allies and powerless to maintain vaccine supplies outside of the warm arms of the EU.

[Castro]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	They won't have a problem selling them at cost, the world needs vaccines.

AstraZeneca are much more than a vaccines company and their 2nd biggest market after the USA is still the EU. The reputational damage to them will be huge if CEO Pascal Soriot doesn't sort this out to everyone's satisfaction.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Castro
	AstraZeneca are much more than a vaccines company and their 2nd biggest market after the USA is still the EU. The reputational damage to them will be huge if CEO Pascal Soriot doesn't sort this out to everyone's satisfaction.

I don't think so, contrary to the reputational damage that the EU has done to itself. They have not done anything right in the Covid crisis and have not shown any leadership. I find it rather shocking.

[Castro]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I don't think so, contrary to the reputational damage that the EU has done to itself. They have not done anything right in the Covid crisis and have not shown any leadership. I find it rather shocking.

Maybe in the international court of public opinion, but if you're an EU citizen not so much.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Castro
	Maybe in the international court of public opinion, but if you're an EU citizen not so much.

I am an EU citizen

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I don't think so, contrary to the reputational damage that the EU has done to itself. They have not done anything right in the Covid crisis and have not shown any leadership. I find it rather shocking.

It is not the 1st time in Covid situation. They shamed covid free EU countries for closing their borders during the 1st wave. Now it happens to be ok, when the big members decide. Vaccines are missing, PPE still problematic, it looks like being in the EU now is a disadvantage. What a pathetic mess.

[Castro]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	It is not the 1st time in Covid situation. They shamed covid free EU countries for closing their borders during the 1st wave. Now it happens to be ok, when the big members decide. Vaccines are missing, PPE still problematic, it looks like being in the EU now is a disadvantage. What a pathetic mess.

Any EU member state is able to invoke national emergency protocols to approve and import any vaccine it likes. The more nimble ones such as Hungary already started trials on the Russian Sputnik vaccine last year and was also in talks with Israel and China. The EU is a nice comfort blanket but for a national health emergency it might be best to go it alone.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Castro
	Any EU member state is able to invoke national emergency protocols to approve and import any vaccine it likes. The more nimble ones such as Hungary already started trials on the Russian Sputnik vaccine last year and was also in talks with Israel and China. The EU is a nice comfort blanket but for a national health emergency it might be best to go it alone.

Then Brussel shouldn't have pushed otherwise. They lost credibility. Pointing fingers at V4 who knew that they couldn't rely on a mamoth cooperation. The covid patients CZ took from Germany and France were also negotiated outside of the EU. The help CZ got during the worst spread mainly came from NATO. Whoever came, those army doctors, though, were mainly learning how to deal with mass medical emergency. And learned 3 Czech words. If EU isn't reliable in the time of crisis, it will seem even less useful in other matters.

[JackieH]

Strangely enough, only about 10 days ago, in the House of Commons- and in response to an MP from NI complaining that they are having difficulties with keeping shelves filled and supply chains working- Johnson said he would have no hesitation in triggering art. 16 himself.