The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	JackieH
	You mean this video of IDS is fake- photoshopped and voiced over? I'd recognise his voice anywhere for sure- it grates so much. Is it also not true that Gove is now saying the problems with EU border, and UK/NI/Ireland/EU even more so, are not teething problems, and he- who held all the cards, every single one of them- is now begging the EU for an extension until the end of 2023? How delusional can anyone be.

I still haven't seen any evidence that Boris Johnson invoked Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol in mid January in your link, nor elsewhere for that matter.

[JackieH]

You need to be better informed.

Clear as a bell, in Prime Minister Question Time in House of Commons, in response to DUP complaints about empty shelves.

January 13th

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said his Government will have "no hesitation" in triggering Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol if 'disproportionate' problems arise result of the legislation.

Mr Johnson made the comments in the Commons on Wednesday in response to a question from the DUP's Westminster leader Sir Jeffrey Donaldson. (video available for all who seek).

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-39964412.html

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	JackieH
	You need to be better informed. Clear as a bell, in Prime Minister Question Time in House of Commons, in response to DUP complaints about empty shelves. January 13th Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said his Government will have "no hesitation" in triggering Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol if 'disproportionate' problems arise result of the legislation. Mr Johnson made the comments in the Commons on Wednesday in response to a question from the DUP's Westminster leader Sir Jeffrey Donaldson. (video available for all who seek).

Threatening to invoke it and actually invoking it are not the same thing.
I think that’s the point that Tony Clifton labouring.

[JackieH]

'we shall have no hesitation' sounds quite clear.

These were my actual words on 1st of February ''There is however no denying that Johnson himself, 2 weeks earlier, said he would have no hesitation in invoking art 16 if supply chains to NI were affected.'' - I never ever said he had done it, but threatened to do it.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	JackieH
	'we shall have no hesitation' sounds quite clear.

It is certainly clear that he was prepared to invoke article 16 but he didn’t actually go ahead and invoke it which is what Tony Clifton is arguing about. He quoted a post of yours saying that Johnson had invoked it but I have no idea where that quote came from as I can’t see it in the thread (although admittedly I haven’t looked very hard).

Found it

	Quote:	JackieH
	How can you compare with Switzerland? Switzerland has agreements which basically make them part of Single market, are part of Schengen and have Free Movement. Really? As for article 16- Johnsons invoqued it mid January, was before Ursula VdL did. It was clear to anyone with 2.5 brain cells that the UK/NI border and/or NI/Ireland border could not work- there for all to see. https://www.facebook.com/67987986911...3087399465439/ Anyone who has relatives, friends, from NI/Ulster - will know that it is a recipe for disaster and will not be accepted- and neither will they accept to unite- not for at least 3 or more generations. And how dangerous the situation is. Partly too because that border is linked with drugs, money laundering, mafia, and so much more. How naïve can people be.

Post 29231 in this thread.

[JackieH]

	Quote:	Belgianmum
	It is certainly clear that he was prepared to invoke article 16 but he didn’t actually go ahead and invoke it which is what Tony Clifton is arguing about. He quoted a post of yours saying that Johnson had invoked it but I have no idea where that quote came from as I can’t see it in the thread (although admittedly I haven’t looked very hard)

Exactly, I looked, I found, I posted above. So do NOT twist my words, please.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Exactly, I looked, I found, I posted above. So do NOT twist my words, please.

Excuse me? I am not twisting anything.
All I was trying to do was to be helpful and show where I thought Tony Clifton was coming from, I won’t bother in future.

[Island Monkey]

He didn’t threaten to do it at all.... that’s very different to what he said, which is he’ll do it if the situation requires it. And very different to the EU and UvdL doing it (then changing her mind).

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	The DUP could not give a crap about the protocol nor BREXIT for that matter, they are just after anything which will enable them to have the GFA cancelled.

Why are they dead set against it? Everybody gained since its introduction, no?

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Why are they dead set against it? Everybody gained since its introduction, no?

You do know what the U in DUP stands for, don't you?

Here's a handy explainer on the DUP's attitude to the NI protocol.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Why are they dead set against it? Everybody gained since its introduction, no?

Because it’s the blueprint for the dissolution of the United Kingdom, the loss of power and influence etc, the end of their world. And unlike 1922, they have no where to go.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Because it’s the blueprint for the dissolution of the United Kingdom, the loss of power and influence etc, the end of their world. And unlike 1922, they have no where to go.

What about today's British, isn't NI somewhat like a bag of fleas to them to begin with? NI is poor, in constant need of huge support, and nothing but a source of troubles. Is interstate loyalty that strong?

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Because it’s the blueprint for the dissolution of the United Kingdom, the loss of power and influence etc, the end of their world. And unlike 1922, they have no where to go.

Northern Northern Ireland and Southern Northern Ireland here we go replete with East and West Belfast

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	What about today's British, isn't NI somewhat like a bag of fleas to them to begin with? NI is poor, in constant need of huge support, and nothing but a source of troubles. Is interstate loyalty that strong?

The thing about the GFA was the nobody expected that the ultimate objective would be achieved in their lifetime, so while it might have been uncomfortable it was for someone else to deal with when the time came. But BREXIT has speeded up the process....

In the case of Ireland, if you simply ask people if they will vote for a United Ireland, they will say yes. But when phrase the question a little different the answer changes:
- Would you vote for a United Ireland, if your taxes went up 10%?
- Would you vote for a United Ireland, if it means Irish guards and soldiers will come home in body bags from Derry or Belfast?
- Would you vote for a United Ireland, if it means SF will dominate Irish politics for the foreseeable future?
- Would you vote for a United Ireland, if it means a million conservatives impacting constitutional rights such a gay marriage or abortion?

Unlike the UK, Irish referenda are characterized by voters wanting to hear about the nuts and bolts. And I strongly suspect that when the Northern question comes under that kind of analysis, the voters may very well say: thanks, but no thanks.

And where do you go from there......

[RufusB]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	The IRA would send warnings. Tom

Not always. Often they just took responsibility after the fact.

	Quote:	JackieH
	'we shall have no hesitation' sounds quite clear. These were my actual words on 1st of February ''There is however no denying that Johnson himself, 2 weeks earlier, said he would have no hesitation in invoking art 16 if supply chains to NI were affected.'' - I never ever said he had done it, but threatened to do it.

BM is right: this is a threat. Not an action.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	What about today's British, isn't NI somewhat like a bag of fleas to them to begin with? NI is poor, in constant need of huge support, and nothing but a source of troubles. Is interstate loyalty that strong?

Bag of fleas? NI is, has been, always will be, a hot potato, politically speaking.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	The thing about the GFA was the nobody expected that the ultimate objective would be achieved in their lifetime, so while it might have been uncomfortable it was for someone else to deal with when the time came. But BREXIT has speeded up the process.... In the case of Ireland, if you simply ask people if they will vote for a United Ireland, they will say yes. But when phrase the question a little different the answer changes: - Would you vote for a United Ireland, if your taxes went up 10%? - Would you vote for a United Ireland, if it means Irish guards and soldiers will come home in body bags from Derry or Belfast? - Would you vote for a United Ireland, if it means SF will dominate Irish politics for the foreseeable future? - Would you vote for a United Ireland, if it means a million conservatives impacting constitutional rights such a gay marriage or abortion? Unlike the UK, Irish referenda are characterized by voters wanting to hear about the nuts and bolts. And I strongly suspect that when the Northern question comes under that kind of analysis, the voters may very well say: thanks, but no thanks. And where do you go from there......

Exactly this.

[st2lemans]

"Brexit: 71 pages of paperwork for 1 lorry of fish"

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55887043

Tom

[bowlie]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	"Brexit: 71 pages of paperwork for 1 lorry of fish" https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55887043 Tom

And do you think this is any different for fish coming from Maine or Nova Scotia?

[marton]

	Quote:	bowlie
	And do you think this is any different for fish coming from Maine or Nova Scotia?

Pretty similar

[Dinivan]

They most likely voted for Brexit because they wanted the UK fleet to have a larger share of the catch. The BoJo government gave them in, now they don't have a significantly larger catch, and they can't even sell it easily in the EU. The schadenfreude that I feel is palpable.

[JackieH]

	Quote:	Belgianmum
	Excuse me? I am not twisting anything. All I was trying to do was to be helpful and show where I thought Tony Clifton was coming from.

Apology in order. As a non English speaker, I used the word 'invoke' in the sense of its many synonyms, and not as a legal term.