The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	France has since the demise of Napoleon for the most part been governed on the principle that the cog that squeaks the loudest gets the most grease. The net result has been all cogs to squealing as loudly as possible and a chronic shortage of grease. The lorry drivers are only one of those cogs. To some extent the French style of governance has been unthinkingly copied by the EU, with the added attraction being that the French could play with the Germans' money rather their own.

Whose money?

	Quote:
	Mitterrand 'gave £10m to Kohl'

[marton]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	Remove the mumble mumble and you've hit the nail on the head. The most important issue this year. By far. The EUs handling has been a "fiasco". Guy Verhofstadts words not mine. https://euobserver.com/stakeholders/150931. Here's what the unelectable Lib Dem's had to say about the issue - "The government must put people's lives before politics and join the EU's vaccine scheme." Will they apologise and admit they were speaking rubbish and that they were the ones risking lives? No they won't. We now have the freedom to diverge and more things will come up over time that we can judge brexit on. It's a medium to long term project. I'm surprised that there's already been such a huge benefit in the first few months tbh. I expected these first few months to be full of teething difficulties without much benefit. Let's see where UK gdp growth is by 2025 or 2030 compared to Germany, France, Italy and Spain. (Or just look at 2021 growth if you prefer!) The reality is we Brexiteers are delighted to have got rid of the commission and basically are very happy. I don't want my country to be governed by an undemocratic bunch of protectionist technocrats. Europe's economic performance has been very poor for a long time compared to other developed western countries so objectively they've done badly. I think overall I'm not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me.

"my country to be governed by an undemocratic bunch of protectionist technocrats" always the same bleating from a country where Prime Ministers, Cabinet Ministers, and senior civil servants are also not democratically elected. Probably the biggest surprise was Theresa May as PM.

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	Whose money?

The Eu budget is in the three figure billions, not the two figure millions.

But anyway.

[marton]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Seeing a recent photo of him recently, living in a barely furnished bedsit without a picture of photo anywhere, and looking grey/yellow and very drawn- he certainly does not look very well. Have the fags and booze + failure finally caught up with him? Country File tonight - mind boggling to hear that some of the fishermen interviewed are actually surprised that Brexit didn't provide them with an improvement in their businesses. One of them said "I voted to leave the EU, in order to increase our exports to Europe". Where is that phrase about not being able to make it up! People are truly and quickly waking up to the fact they have been good and properly done (could think of even better words).

Annual MEP salary, expenses, allowances, etc. can run up to half a million per year, a lot to walk away from.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Well, when I was spending much of my working time dealing with Brussels, I would have said the UK. These days perhaps the Isle of Man?

UK? Seriously? Perhaps that's the reason everyone is relived (in a way) they're separating from the continental Europe after quite a few years of drama. What would I have in common with a Brit for instance? I feel like I have much more in common with the French. Or even with the Germans, despite dragging us into a second world war that has been catastrophic for us, Soviet tanks aside and Soviet troops stationed till the sixties aside.

In all fairness, I would like every country to have a say and to be able to follow their own interests, however limited by the rest of the union countries' interests. The idea of Germany and even France running Europe unilaterally/bilaterally, like in some sort of Austro-Hungarian Reich II, it is frightening. With Germany, we've been there before.

As long as EU wants to save the world but not their own citizens e.g. see the agreements they have with various organisations/countries, they're gonna lose big time. I don't care about their post-colonial guilt. I just don't care. If they want to prove that being a EU member has some value, they have to think bigger than how they do now. IMO, obviously.

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	greenmount
	UK? Seriously? Perhaps that's the reason everyone is relived (in a way) they're separating from the continental Europe after quite a few years of drama. What would I have in common with a Brit for instance? I feel like I have much more in common with the French. Or even with the Germans, despite dragging us into a second world war that has been catastrophic for us, Soviet tanks aside and Soviet troops stationed till the sixties aside. In all fairness, I would like every country to have a say and to be able to follow their own interests, however limited by the rest of the union countries' interests. The idea of Germany and even France running Europe unilaterally/bilaterally, like in some sort of Austro-Hungarian Reich II, it is frightening. With Germany, we've been there before. As long as EU wants to save the world but not their own citizens, they're gonna lose big time.

I fear this (a Franco-Germanic, or Germanic-French, whichever way you'd like it) is the only way a united Europe is going to happen.
There's gonna have to be someone who's calling the shots (pun intended).
There's no way you can have an entity with the size of Europe and diverging cultural, social, economic, political, military (and religious) heritage and goals and govern it like it's the local small-animal-breeding-club on steroids.

The reality might be, though, that the money will run out before that pipe-dream is reached.

I think every politician knows this. But what nobody (them included) knows it what comes after the whole thing has gone down. That is what is driving this whole thing (IMO).

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	amogles
	I recently ordered some tools from a Chinese seller (not Alibaba) because they had them much cheaper than any EU supplier for an identical item, even if shipping and duties were included. I assumed this was probably because they came from China anyway so i might as well buy at source. On opening the box I found it was made in Poland.

They (the Chinese Alibaba merchants) have warehouses in Poland these days.

Doesn't mean they actually pay taxes in Europe, but you don't have to wait for six weeks for your shipping to arrive.

[JackieH]

	Quote:	marton
	Annual MEP salary, expenses, allowances, etc. can run up to half a million per year, a lot to walk away from.

The Law on shellfish processing, which is currently killing our fisheries, dates from 2008. Guess who was the MEP in charge of fisheries at the time?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	amogles
	I recently ordered some tools from a Chinese seller (not Alibaba) because they had them much cheaper than any EU supplier for an identical item, even if shipping and duties were included. I assumed this was probably because they came from China anyway so i might as well buy at source. On opening the box I found it was made in Poland.

Yes. When I see made in Poland or made in Portugal written on products that we massively import from China now because we were told to destroy our own production capacity, I feel a brief moment of happiness.

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think Germany would be an unacceptable choice, they tried to run Europe twice before. France is ultimately run by the lorry drivers so that would be a no from me.

Germany tried several more times before the last two.

And the UK is run by a German family.

Tom

[JackieH]

Now this was the second time I asked the question, quite some time ago. And somehow, for some strange reason, our Brexiter friends have not come forwards with an answer. So, in case they missed it, I shall ask for the 3rd time and wait patiently



I would be interested in knowing from our resident Brexiters what solutions, viable, and which will not result in bloodshed- they would envisage to solve this one? Thanks.

the border between UK and EU UK/NI and NI/Eire ? We need your bright ideas for a solution, please.

[NewInTownForever]

The BioNTech vaccine, the first vaccine to be developed, with one the best protection rates (better than the AZ garbage), was developed by sons and daughters of so-called 'low-skilled immigrants', those immigrants that selfish entitled Breexiters hate.

Remember that at the end of the days, in front of death we are all the same...low-skilled, high-skilled, rich, poor, frontaliers, residents...we are all going to be worthless ash in the end.

	Quote:	NewInTownForever
	The BioNTech vaccine, the first vaccine to be developed, with one the best protection rates (better than the AZ garbage), was developed by sons and daughters of so-called 'low-skilled immigrants', those immigrants that selfish entitled Breexiters hate.

Since when are surgeons and biologists low-skilled?

[NewInTownForever]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Since when are surgeons and biologists low-skilled?

Their parents came to Germany from Turkey to work in so-called 'low-skilled' jobs.
Read the life history of the BioNTech founders...

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Since when are surgeons and biologists low-skilled?

Let's not being elitist. The power of the proletariat goes a long way.

[amogles]

	Quote:	rainer_d
	I fear this (a Franco-Germanic, or Germanic-French, whichever way you'd like it) is the only way a united Europe is going to happen. There's gonna have to be someone who's calling the shots (pun intended). There's no way you can have an entity with the size of Europe and diverging cultural, social, economic, political, military (and religious) heritage and goals and govern it like it's the local small-animal-breeding-club on steroids.

This is at the end of the day why I think the European project won't work. Those who are most naturally placed to lead are the ones who really shouldn't.

I don't agree that the cultural diversity is an insurmountable problem. Switzerland for example has a lot of that too. Switzerland has different languages, religions, attitudes, who in the early days had very little in common, but who may have approached one another slowly over time. And yet it all works somehow. But this is because the Swiss have learned to be aware of the differences and have developed the necessary respect to work together without imposing their way of doing things on the others.

Germany also emerged form a multitude of little countries, which also had cultural and religious differences. But the unification was largely at the behest of Prussia and the Prussians attempted (with limited success) to form the rest of Germany in their image. In doing so they caused a lot of resentment (ask a Bavarian). But still nobody in Germany wants to go back to where they were before. Even in Bavaria, the place with the strongest will to independence, the independence party doesn't get more than a few percent of the vote.

Belgium had even worse problems with essentially one linguistic group suppressing the other for a long time. And the other group now finding its voice and hitting back. And a lot of people actually believe that in the longer term Belgium will fall apart, for better or for worse.

So Europe needs to be asking itself whether they want to be the new Belgium or the new Germany or the new Switzerland.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	NewInTownForever
	The BioNTech vaccine, the first vaccine to be developed, with one the best protection rates (better than the AZ garbage), was developed by sons and daughters of so-called 'low-skilled immigrants', those immigrants that selfish entitled Breexiters hate. Remember that at the end of the days, in front of death we are all the same...low-skilled, high-skilled, rich, poor, frontaliers, residents...we are all going to be worthless ash in the end.

I do like a balanced summary. Meanwhile, in Germany, the already appalling vaccination rate is taking a further tumble because people are actively not turning up to their appointments if its the AZ jab they are getting, meaning the current stockpile of 1.5m doses is not being taken up (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xford-jab.html).

It is because of views such as those above that this message permeates which is problematic because this will genuinely result in more infections and ultimately deaths, because of such scaremongering.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	So Europe needs to be asking itself whether they want to be the new Belgium or the new Germany or the new Switzerland.

Russia is in Europe, too.

There are many good, not so good, not so bad and bad examples.

CZ got split despite there not being many pressing reasons, still worked out ok. I think the split was mainly religious vs non religious life style. Belgian friction in my experience stems from religious split? Ireland/UK also touches on the religious note. CH is smooth as it gets since the religion doesn't seem to split people. So Europe should pick whatever splits the least, imho.

	Quote:	NewInTownForever
	Their parents came to Germany from Turkey to work in so-called 'low-skilled' jobs. Read the life history of the BioNTech founders...

I did. It writes

	Quote:
	Born in Lastrup, Türeci is the daughter of a Turkish surgeon father from Istanbul, who worked at the Catholic hospital St. Elisabeth-Stift in Lastrup in the district of Cloppenburg.[6] Her mother is a Turkish biologist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96zlem_T%C3%BCreci

You must have very high standards. Are you perhaps a brain surgeon?

[amogles]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Belgian friction in my experience stems from religious split? Ireland/UK also touches on the religious note. CH is smooth as it gets since the religion doesn't seem to split people. So Europe should pick whatever splits the least, imho.

I think on the contrary. They united back in the day that religion was important. The Flemish were predominantly Catholic whereas the Dutch were predominantly protestant (with some pockets and exclaves of exceptions), so the Flemish ceded from the Netherlands and ended up attaching themselves to French-speaking Wallonia because those guys were Catholic too, but otherwise they had little in common.

Today nobody cares about religion any more, but language has become a big divider. Which is why many Flemish want to go back.