The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Mikers
	I do like a balanced summary. Meanwhile, in Germany, the already appalling vaccination rate is taking a further tumble because people are actively not turning up to their appointments if its the AZ jab they are getting, meaning the current stockpile of 1.5m doses is not being taken up (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xford-jab.html). It is because of views such as those above that this message permeates which is problematic because this will genuinely result in more infections and ultimately deaths, because of such scaremongering.

Imagine people are turning down the now proven life saving AZ vaccine in part because of misinformation spread by the likes of President Macron and the EU, and all because the EU couldn’t own up to the mistakes that they made.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	I think on the contrary. They united back in the day that religion was important. The Flemish were predominantly Catholic whereas the Dutch were predominantly protestant (with some pockets and exclaves of exceptions), so the Flemish ceded from the Netherlands and ended up attaching themselves to French-speaking Wallonia because those guys were Catholic too, but otherwise they had little in common. Today nobody cares about religion any more, but language has become a big divider. Which is why many Flemish want to go back.

This is the opposite I hear from the young Belgians I hang out with. Everybody speaks languages, here and there, it is an instrument. But religion is not an instrument, it is a choice. And I think where language can help unite, religion can still split. Not in CH, because of the respect to everyone's choice they made as per religion and spirituality. So, you say people were more united since there was more religion..maybe there was more familiarity, lack of choice, no alternatives. I think there is a chance for unity, out of respect - not because of a language or religion. But respecting people's choices. EU deprives of a choice and imposes oversight. It is the same issue as NGOs eating tax money and investing them in political campaigning of their choice I saw on local programming - very interesting issue. Same dilema.

	Quote:	Mikers
	It is because of views such as those above that this message permeates which is problematic because this will genuinely result in more infections and ultimately deaths, because of such scaremongering.

I don't think people are scared of the AZ vaccine; they just regard it as inferior to some of the alternatives (or all of the available alternatives). It's a view shared by most British medical practitioners, according to a survey published in the BMJ.

Given the choice, I'd certainly elect to have the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine over the AZ jab. But if the alternatives aren't offered, there's no question that I'd take the AZ vaccine. It works, just not as well. I don't know whether those who have refused the AZ vaccine would become eligible to receive one of the others instead.

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	I think on the contrary. They united back in the day that religion was important. The Flemish were predominantly Catholic whereas the Dutch were predominantly protestant (with some pockets and exclaves of exceptions), so the Flemish ceded from the Netherlands and ended up attaching themselves to French-speaking Wallonia because those guys were Catholic too, but otherwise they had little in common. Today nobody cares about religion any more, but language has become a big divider. Which is why many Flemish want to go back.

I thought the shape of Belgium was basically set by the London Conference of 1830 followed by pressure from Britain and France to finalise the situation.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	amogles
	I think on the contrary. They united back in the day that religion was important. The Flemish were predominantly Catholic whereas the Dutch were predominantly protestant (with some pockets and exclaves of exceptions), so the Flemish ceded from the Netherlands and ended up attaching themselves to French-speaking Wallonia because those guys were Catholic too, but otherwise they had little in common. Today nobody cares about religion any more, but language has become a big divider. Which is why many Flemish want to go back.

I agree.
Religion is definitely not a major cause of friction in Belgium today.

[JackieH]

Perhaps better to open a specific thread about Belgium? as we are getting a bit far from the OP.

And try and solve the UK/EU border. Surely a Brexiter or two on here should have a great solution to hand.

[amogles]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	This is the opposite I hear from the young Belgians I hang out with. Everybody speaks languages, here and there, it is an instrument. But religion is not an instrument, it is a choice. And I think where language can help unite, religion can still split. Not in CH, because of the respect to everyone's choice they made as per religion and spirituality. So, you say people were more united since there was more religion..maybe there was more familiarity, lack of choice, no alternatives. I think there is a chance for unity, out of respect - not because of a language or religion. But respecting people's choices. EU deprives of a choice and imposes oversight. It is the same issue as NGOs eating tax money and investing them in political campaigning of their choice I saw on local programming - very interesting issue. Same dilema.

I don't think that religion, or language or anything else is can in and of itself unite or split people. It can start to be a splitting factor when people start to use it as an identifying factor.

For example for a long time the French speaking south of Belgium was the rich part. This is where the coal mines mostly were and the big steel plants and back in the day a lot of entrepreneurs built up industrial empires out of nothing. The northern speaking Flemish part was mostly agricultural and nothing much ever changed there. So Flemish people who wanted to make money and seek opportunities moved down south and sought work in the French part. And this meant they had to learn French. Middle class Flemish families would send their kids to French speaking schools to improve their chances of moving up in life. It's surprsing how many French speaking Belgians have Flemish surnames, but its rare to see a native Flemish speaker with a French surname.

Over time this led to the perception that Flemish speakers are poor and uneducated peasants, and French speakers were entrepreneurial, educated and succesful.

But then post WW2 a lot of things changed. The coal ran out. The steel industry went into decline. Once succesful cities like Charleroi turned into brownfield wildernesses with high unemployment. But in the Flemish part the reverse happened. High tech companies moved in. Tourism developed. But the French speakers still regarded them as a backward lot and refused to even attempt to speak the language when visiting. Attitudes did not immediately catch up with reality. And this led to a backlash, politically. i don't think the language was the decisive factor. It was just one group feeling unhappy about another group and looking for some identifying factor to create a separate identity around. The language just came in handy. It could just as well have been something else.

Maybe the younger generation are moving beyond that again and things will calm down over time. Possibly. I don't know.

[bowlie]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Perhaps better to open a specific thread about Belgium? as we are getting a bit far from the OP. And try and solve the UK/EU border. Surely a Brexiter or two on here should have a great solution to hand.

Jackie, you know there is no realistic solution. Probably the one with the fewest objections would be a merger of the two Irelands. Many in the south would support, about half (perhaps more) of the north would support and those in GB could give a toss.

Ireland could also join the UK ... But that isn't bloody likely. Would you give up independence and EU membership for Boris' lot?

[marton]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Perhaps better to open a specific thread about Belgium? as we are getting a bit far from the OP. And try and solve the UK/EU border. Surely a Brexiter or two on here should have a great solution to hand.

Back to topic and in the "do not know whether to laugh or cry corner".

	Quote:
	UK universities plead to keep EU cash post-Brexit

The UK Govt. has announced the Turing scheme for education but not yet much detail on their website, it reads more like a wish list. They say students will be able to study abroad but no information yet on which countries.

[JackieH]

Now according to Tories today, if you take the middle of April and go 3 weeks later, it takes you to the 8th of March - Pardon??? (re- re-opening of schools)


https://fb.watch/3PuTQaXSgX/

[JackieH]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Jackie, you know there is no realistic solution. Probably the one with the fewest objections would be a merger of the two Irelands.

I did say 'without bloodshed'


Yes, I know that there is no solution- it is perfectly clear.

But it was perfectly clear all along, right from the start. And yet the DUP took the money and voted for Johnson's Deal, knowing this full well. Johnson knew it, the ERG knew it - everyone with 2 brain cells knew it.

[bowlie]

IIRC 56% of N. Ireland voters favoured remain.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Maybe the younger generation are moving beyond that again and things will calm down over time. Possibly. I don't know.

I think so.

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	I thought the shape of Belgium was basically set by the London Conference of 1830 followed by pressure from Britain and France to finalise the situation.

There was a revolution and popular uprising that started prior to this date.

[marton]

	Quote:	JackieH
	I did say 'without bloodshed' Yes, I know that there is no solution- it is perfectly clear. But it was perfectly clear all along, right from the start. And yet the DUP took the money and voted for Johnson's Deal, knowing this full well. Johnson knew it, the ERG knew it - everyone with 2 brain cells knew it.

DUP have now started legal action against the deal.........

[JackieH]

Indeed, for the umpteenth time- you just could not make it up!


Brexit dividends personified - the picture of a successful man

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/po...terview/18/02/

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	So Europe needs to be asking itself whether they want to be the new Belgium or the new Germany or the new Switzerland.

This stuff takes time, centuries. The EU on the other hand is less than 30 years old (Maastricht).

[bowlie]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	This stuff takes time, centuries. The EU on the other hand is less than 30 years old (Maastricht).

Prior to that I don’t think Europe ever went 30 years without a major war. And the primary objective of the EU has always been to stop war in Europe. With some hiccoughs they have been successful.

[amogles]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Prior to that I don’t think Europe ever went 30 years without a major war. And the primary objective of the EU has always been to stop war in Europe. With some hiccoughs they have been successful.

The Bosnians are eternally thankful.

Quite besides which there are many other parts of the world that have not seen a war on their own turf for longer than that. Maybe the EU is taking credit for things that they are not the sole authors of. NATO also played an important role in keeping peace in Europe for example.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Prior to that I don’t think Europe ever went 30 years without a major war. And the primary objective of the EU has always been to stop war in Europe. With some hiccoughs they have been successful.

Quite a bold claim, what's your proof?
I'm not talking about a grandiose ex-post claim by some grandstanding politician, but an official common statement (contract, agreement, whatever) issued during "your" 30 years (I thought the MontanUnion was established more like 40 years prior, either is fine).

The absence of war is an absolutely necessary pre-requisite for any kind of trade agreement. First there was peace, then came the agreements.
(reminds me of Telegraph Road, time for lots of Dire Straits)

Besides, and just IIRC, not being involved in a war is a condition sine qua non to join the EU. One of the reasons IMHO why Russia keeps making sure Ukraine is not in a peace situation.