The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	Criminals have rights too.

They have identical rights to anyone else, however they failed to claim some of those rights as they chose to evade taxation instead.

[Island Monkey]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Of course there bloody well was! There had been peace there, broad agreement for the the long term way forward etc... But of course it’s easier not to take responsibility for total BS that has been going on for the last few years. Countless warnings were given and ignored, next step will be the mainland as they call it down there and then you’ll back to the 70s, only this time you’ll have both sides against the UK government. You can’t go around telling people that there won’t be border checks, while signing up to them at the same and expect there won’t be consequences. Anyone who thinks for minute that this was not caused by BREXIT is not to be taken seriously.

Actually a lot of this seems to stem from a recent IRA funeral.

The Good Friday agreement has maintained peace for a while - but it’s not a total fix - it is a sticking plaster and it can unravel at any time.

[JackieH]

Which is why, if you listen to the clips in O'Brien's video above- Johnson and others, said again and again- that putting a border in the sea between GB and NI, was massively dangerous and playing with fire. He heavily criticised Mrs May at the time, and then ... having promised again and again, there would be NO border, NO checks, NO redtape - he did - JUST THAT.

He knew what the result would be, and so did the blessed Arlene- she took the money, but she knew. That sticking plaster needed to be re-inforced, and everything done so that the wound could heal - not torn off and a knife stuck in and twisted.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Which is why, if you listen to the clips in O'Brien's video above- Johnson and others, said again and again- that putting a border in the sea between GB and NI, was massively dangerous and playing with fire. He heavily criticised Mrs May at the time, and then ... having promised again and again, there would be NO border, NO checks, NO redtape - he did - JUST THAT. He knew what the result would be, and so did the blessed Arlene- she took the money, but she knew. That sticking plaster needed to be re-inforced, and everything done so that the wound could heal - not torn off and a knife stuck in and twisted.

Boris was just carrying out the wishes of the electorate, as he pledged to do if he won the election on 12 December 2019. He won & delivered on his promise to 'Get Brexit done'.

People need to get over it until the electorate wan't to change the status quo.

[Island Monkey]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Which is why, if you listen to the clips in O'Brien's video above- Johnson and others, said again and again- that putting a border in the sea between GB and NI, was massively dangerous and playing with fire. He heavily criticised Mrs May at the time, and then ... having promised again and again, there would be NO border, NO checks, NO redtape - he did - JUST THAT. He knew what the result would be, and so did the blessed Arlene- she took the money, but she knew. That sticking plaster needed to be re-inforced, and everything done so that the wound could heal - not torn off and a knife stuck in and twisted.

Ther has to be a border somewhere - Irish Sea or Irish main land. I don’t see another solution that would be ok for the EU. This should have be a major point of the remain campaign - but it just seemed to be forgotten about.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Island Monkey
	This should have be a major point of the remain campaign - but it just seemed to be forgotten about.

Had remain asked Dominic Cummings to work for them before he joined leave, the outcome would have been different.

If you want to win, choose the best people & let them get on with their job, you don't need to like them.

[JackieH]

Perhaps you would like me to quote what Cummings said about Northern Ireland at the time?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Perhaps you would like me to quote what Cummings said about Northern Ireland at the time?

How is it relevant what he said? He had a job to do & he did it very successfully.

[JackieH]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	How is it relevant what he said? He had a job to do & he did it very successfully.

What does 'sucessfully' mean? We certainly do not have the same description.

''Senior Tory: “I’ve heard that Dominic Cummings has said ‘I don’t care if Northern Ireland falls into the f@@king sea’.”
this has been confirmed by many others too. The fact is, he and Johnson and others, when making promises that there would be NO border, NO checks, NO redtape, and no threat to GFA - knowing full well that that was wrong, dishonest and massive lies- and actually, impossible- knew that full well. So Johnson's current 'I am very concerned, nonsense' is hypocritical in the extreme.

From the Irish Times:

''There were claims that Mr Cummings said he 'did not care if Northern Ireland fell into the sea', although he allegedly expressed his thoughts in even more colourful terms.

The following month, former secretary of state Julian Smith hit out at Mr Cummings over an anonymous Downing Street briefing which threatened to withdraw cooperation from EU countries that support delaying Brexit.

Mr Smith, who was sacked in Boris Johnson's last reshuffle and replaced by Brandon Lewis after only 204 days in the role, expressed alarm at the suggestion that the UK could punish Ireland if it backed a delay by scrapping security ties.

It is understood the comments came in response to a memo - widely believed to have been written by Mr Cummings - which said the government would "scupper" any attempts to delay Brexit.''

And here is the crux- he knew there was NO possible solution to the Irish border, none whatsover - but he wanted Brexit done at all costs.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Island Monkey
	Ther has to be a border somewhere - Irish Sea or Irish main land. I don’t see another solution that would be ok for the EU. This should have be a major point of the remain campaign - but it just seemed to be forgotten about.

This is essentially the issue, the EU understandably wanted to protect their single market. With the vast majority of exports between the UK and the Northern Ireland staying there, there will need to be flexibility on the EU side if they really want to avoid any violence escalating.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	JackieH
	What does 'sucessfully' mean? We certainly do not have the same description. ''Senior Tory: “I’ve heard that Dominic Cummings has said ‘I don’t care if Northern Ireland falls into the f@@king sea’.” this has been confirmed by many others too. The fact is, he and Johnson and others, when making promises that there would be NO border, NO checks, NO redtape, and no threat to GFA - knowing full well that that was wrong, dishonest and massive lies- and actually, impossible- knew that full well. So Johnson's current 'I am very concerned, nonsense' is hypocritical in the extreme.

He was just making an argument for his audience, in exactly the same was as a Barrister makes a case in court to his audience the jury. JC was not even a MP, just a hired voice!

Getting the desired result is generally considered a success

[Island Monkey]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Perhaps you would like me to quote what Cummings said about Northern Ireland at the time?

It doesn’t matter what he said at the time. Pretty much everything the leave campaign said was bull shit. It was all unachievable because the EU would never agree to it.

[JackieH]

So what is happening currently in NI- which was totally predicted and caused be the WA which lied about the border, checks and redtape between UK and NI - was what you call 'success'. Well you could have fooled me there.


Perhaps you could make a lits of a the successful things that Johnson's/ERG/Cummings Brexit has achieved so far.

Island Monkey, on that we can agree. But do you believe that what is happening in NI is a totally unexpected consequence? It was very clear that Johnson, ERG and Cummings knew full well what would happen. And full well that the EU could not ever agree to not having a border between UK and EU- in the absence of being part or associate of Single Market and Customs Union. And no-one can 'blame the EU for that, oder?

This will directly scupper any attempts to have a cooperative relationship with Europe- for sure- and Bidden is making it very clear now, and has done for some time- that the direct threats to the GFA will prevent any deal done with the USA. So 'success' - not quite sure where you see that- waiting with great expectation.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	This is essentially the issue, the EU understandably wanted to protect their single market. With the vast majority of exports between the UK and the Northern Ireland staying there, there will need to be flexibility on the EU side if they really want to avoid any violence escalating.

Yes of course everyone must be flexible to accommodate the UK. And obviously WTO must be flexible about their rules when it comes to the UK attempting to sign trade with members while ignoring the the basic requirements of their organization...

This little kindergarten farce is now going to start costing lives and the BEXITEERS it.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Island Monkey
	It doesn’t matter what he said at the time. Pretty much everything the leave campaign said was bull shit. It was all unachievable because the EU would never agree to it.

Of course it matters what he said! The Unionists believed him for a start and look where they are now. There is nothing trivial about this situation, but your attitude is not surprising because we heard it for decades.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	JackieH
	This will directly scupper any attempts to have a cooperative relationship with Europe- for sure- and Bidden is making it very clear now, and has done for some time- that the direct threats to the GFA will prevent any deal done with the USA. So 'success' - not quite sure where you see that- waiting with great expectation.

You are making a huge assumption that they want a 'cooperative relationship' on EU terms, they don't, which means they will do things differently. EU will be a competitor, it's all about capitalism not about being nice.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Of course it matters what he said! The Unionists believed him for a start and look where they are now. There is nothing trivial about this situation, but your attitude is not surprising because we heard it for decades.

I rarely believe anything anyone tells me, from an employer to politicians. I prefer to think for myself, but then I am not highly qualified so must be stupid. If being stupid gives me confidence, happiness & success, whats not to like?

[Island Monkey]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Of course it matters what he said! The Unionists believed him for a start and look where they are now. There is nothing trivial about this situation, but your attitude is not surprising because we heard it for decades.

It might have mattered during the campaign - but it’s not helpful now - because it’s clearly not achievable. It’s not like the government has just changed its mind and complaining might change it back. The EU won’t agree to no border so there is no point in saying “but they promised this in the past” - it’s not achievable.

You make it sound like I don’t care about the troubles. Of course I do - I was damn lucky I slept in on the morning of the Manchester bombing or I probably wouldn’t be here. But caring doesn’t mean it is solvable!

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	JackieH
	This will directly scupper any attempts to have a cooperative relationship with Europe- for sure- and Bidden is making it very clear now, and has done for some time- that the direct threats to the GFA will prevent any deal done with the USA. So 'success' - not quite sure where you see that- waiting with great expectation.

The problem is that many people don’t grasp that Irish politics is local politics in the US. It does not matter if your a Republican or Democrat, a large block of your voters are Irish American and they can’t be ignored.

As far as Irish Americans are concerned they solved the NI problem, they own the GFA and they are very proud of it. No American politician is going to want to be branded the one that broke the GFA. There is no votes in it.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Island Monkey
	It might have mattered during the campaign - but it’s not helpful now - because it’s clearly not achievable. It’s not like the government has just changed its mind and complaining might change it back. The EU won’t agree to no border so there is no point in saying “but they promised this in the past” - it’s not achievable. You make it sound like I don’t care about the troubles. Of course I do - I was damn lucky I slept in on the morning of the Manchester bombing or I probably wouldn’t be here. But caring doesn’t mean it is solvable!

When will you learn that the UK can only sign and operate a trade deal with a WTO member state if they have a border in place? The only way the UK can operate an open border is if they give up on trade deals.

So stop claiming it’s everyone else’s fault.

[Island Monkey]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	When will you learn that the UK can only sign and operate a trade deal with a WTO member state if they have a border in place? The only way the UK can operate an open border is if they give up on trade deals. So stop claiming it’s everyone else’s fault.

I’m saying what they promised in the campaign is unachievable. I wasn’t blaming anyone per say. You just confirmed it is unachievable!