The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	marton
	You need to read Strand two of the Good Friday Agreement.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46988529

Tom

[amogles]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	The border commission of 1921 never completed their work so there is no agreed physical border. In the 80s we used to patrol this none existed border and when you encounter a British patrol the big debate between the officers was if we were on the right side of the imaginary line. Since no one knew the usual conclusion was to return to barracks and pretend the encounter never happened! That is how far from reality the border is.

This type of border disagreement might be about whether the border passes to the left or to the right or indeed down the middle of a given field.

Maybe there might be remote farmhouses, the country of which might be disputed, and some even who may be milking that ambiguity for personal gain. But all in all there aren't going to be very many of them.

The type of border stuff the EU is concerned about is German supermarkets gaining an unfair competitive advantage bringing stuff in from the UK that might not conform to EU rules, or that at least needs to have duties payed.

Unless this stuff is actually being produced in one of the very few aforementioned remote farmhouses, the precise location of the border is not going to come into it because it should be clear where the goods come from and where they are heading.

And if it is coming from these remote farmhouses, the volume is going to be so insignificant that it's not going to bring the EU crashing down. It wouldn't be the only place in the EU where border guards turn a blind eye to this or that indiscretion, provided it doesn't get out of hand.

[bowlie]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	Why not a hard commercial border, and a soft normal border, just like we have with the surrounding EU? Tom

Now that's a solution. Free movement of people between (part of) the UK and the EU.

OTOH that might not be very popular to Brexiters

[bowlie]

	Quote:	curley
	Or is the devil in the "and"? If it were <<United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Scotland>> they could have?

Great Britain is England, Scotland and Wales and existed for many years before Northern Island.

When Ireland was partitioned on Irish independence (+/-1921), N. Ireland joined with Great Britain to form the UK.

And if you are confused now, please don’t ask about the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.

[JackieH]

curley- please have the courtesy to at least read my posts. Nowhere, but nowhere did I state that ''You keep complaining about not enough information in Switzerland before votes. There is tons and tons and tons of information out there from each side every time. The point is you need to look for it, tune into it, actually LISTEN TO/READ it.'' in Switzerland. Au contraire.

I was talking about Brexit, of course.

And of course it was the Tories who lied abundantly in the Referedum campaign- Again, and again. How can you refute this.

And of course at a later stage, when Johnson wanted to sign a deal at any price, despite being given very precise advice about the consequences.

So many lists and videos - starting with THAT bus ... how can anyone say the Tories did not lie during the campaign and non-stop ever since, is beyond me. Hypocrisy, did you say?

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/articl...of-brexit-lies

[JackieH]

I am increasingly sure that the whole charade is in order to go for what they planned for all along, the ERG and later Johnson jumping on the bandwagon to get elected- NO DEAL.

[Ato]

	Quote:	JackieH
	I am increasingly sure that the whole charade is in order to go for what they planned for all along, the ERG and later Johnson jumping on the bandwagon to get elected- NO DEAL.

I get the feeling this could have been written two years ago with more relevance.

[JackieH]

As said, I do believe it is getting more relevant by the day.

[marton]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46988529 Tom

I posted "You need to read Strand two of the Good Friday Agreement." and here it is in your link "The cross-border strand of the agreement lays out 12 areas of cooperation, which are overseen by the North-South Ministerial Council (NSMC)."

The elephant in this room is that any change to the cross-border needs to be agreed upon by the North-South Ministerial Council (NSMC), that group will never sign off on a hard border.

[bowlie]

I see a few possible “solutions”

1. Irish re-unification. Westminster probably would secretly be happy, Dublin would, in principle, would too - but worry of the impact on the Irish economy.

2. Hard borders UK/IE but this could be similar to Swiss situation, limited restrictions on movement of people but customs barriers to goods and services.

3. The current Irish protocol but the EU hates it and the UK is reluctant to actually implement it.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	amogles
	This type of border disagreement might be about whether the border passes to the left or to the right or indeed down the middle of a given field.

This is the kind of stuff that determines if a Unionist gets to continue to be in the Union or a Republican joins the Union... it’s the kind of thing gets them blowing each other’s brains out and setting bombs in London or Dublin.

Do you realize that at present they are arguing over the recognition of a language that neither side is capable of speaking and they are so committed to it that they are willing to bring the entire power sharing to a halt in doing so?

The last thing that is needed is to give them something tangible to fight about!

[amogles]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Great Britain is England, Scotland and Wales and existed for many years before Northern Island.

No. Great Britain is a geographic feature that forms the mainland of the United Kingdom. Near coastal islands are commonly counted as part of Great Britain as well.

As a geographical feature it has existed at least since the ending of the Ice Age at least and the breaking through of the North Sea back in prehistoric times which separated Great Britain from mainland Europe.

As a geographic feature, Ireland is probably actually a bit older than that. So the northern part thereof (along with the rest) is technically older than Great Britain.

	Quote:	bowlie
	When Ireland was partitioned on Irish independence (+/-1921), N. Ireland joined with Great Britain to form the UK.

I understand that legally the counties that form N Ireland today ceded from the the newly independent Ireland and re-joined the United Kingdom the very moment Ireland technically became independent, so it is a matter of legal dispute whether or not they were part of the Republic for a fraction of a second or not.

Various people have in the past attempted to exploit this loophole. I believe there was once a court case in Ireland in which an Irish court ruled that technically the area had briefly been part of the Free State.

	Quote:	bowlie
	And if you are confused now, please don’t ask about the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.

Actually these are much easier to explain.

When it comes to explaining Rockall things get difficult.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	bowlie
	When Ireland was partitioned on Irish independence (+/-1921), N. Ireland joined with Great Britain to form the UK.

No, the UK was formed by the act of union in 1801 of the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland and renamed after 1921 to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and NI.

[amogles]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Now that's a solution. Free movement of people between (part of) the UK and the EU. OTOH that might not be very popular to Brexiters

It looks as though it might work for Gibraltar.

Or ask the Germans in Büsingen.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	amogles
	I understand that legally the counties that form N Ireland today ceded from the the newly independent Ireland and re-joined the United Kingdom the very moment Ireland technically became independent, so it is a matter of legal dispute whether or not they were part of the Republic for a fraction of a second or not. Various people have in the past attempted to exploit this loophole. I believe there was once a court case in Ireland in which an Irish court ruled that technically the area had briefly been part of the Free State..

That would be another no! The NI parliament was opened in June 1921, the Anglo Irish treaty establishing the free state was not signed until Dec 1921.

The Republic of Ireland is the named of a football team not a state. The name of the state is Ireland or Eire in Gaelic. The British government normal refers to it as Eire so as not to upset Unionists.

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	No. Great Britain is a geographic feature that forms the mainland of the United Kingdom. Near coastal islands are commonly counted as part of Great Britain as well. As a geographical feature it has existed at least since the ending of the Ice Age at least and the breaking through of the North Sea back in prehistoric times which separated Great Britain from mainland Europe. As a geographic feature, Ireland is probably actually a bit older than that. So the northern part thereof (along with the rest) is technically older than Great Britain. I understand that legally the counties that form N Ireland today ceded from the the newly independent Ireland and re-joined the United Kingdom the very moment Ireland technically became independent, so it is a matter of legal dispute whether or not they were part of the Republic for a fraction of a second or not. Various people have in the past attempted to exploit this loophole. I believe there was once a court case in Ireland in which an Irish court ruled that technically the area had briefly been part of the Free State. Actually these are much easier to explain. When it comes to explaining Rockall things get difficult.

Great Britain includes the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, the Isles of Scilly, the Hebrides and the island groups of Orkney and Shetland, which are part of England, Wales, or Scotland. It does not include the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

Rockall is part of the United Kingdom.

[Island Monkey]

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	Rockall is part of the United Kingdom.

Not undisputed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall_Bank_dispute

[amogles]

	Quote:	Island Monkey

I can see two things on that map that might annoy Jim

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	amogles
	It looks as though it might work for Gibraltar. Or ask the Germans in Büsingen.

Or Italians in Campione or Livigno.

Tom