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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #29861  
Old 09.06.2021, 08:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No-one, but no-one knows what Brexit is- so how can it be ... over!?
What?

Brexit is the separation of the UK from the EU, what part of that do you fail to understand?

Tom
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  #29862  
Old 09.06.2021, 08:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No-one, but no-one knows what Brexit is- so how can it be ... over!?
Tom is playing semantics.

Brexit, as in the act of leaving the EU, is over but the repercussions of that action definitely aren’t.
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  #29863  
Old 09.06.2021, 09:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What?

Brexit is the separation of the UK from the EU, what part of that do you fail to understand?

Tom
Er,

Northern Ireland is part of the UK (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

Northern Ireland remains part of the EU (precluding a hard border with Ireland)

Ergo the UK has not separated completely from the EU.

Q.E.D. Brexit is not over.
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Old 09.06.2021, 09:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

A pro EU colleague posted this yesterday (permission sought)

''"On Monday, the UK's Brexit Minister Lord Frost admitted the UK had "underestimated" the effect of the protocol on goods movements to Northern Ireland."

They overestimated their own capacity to estimate anything. An average 8-year old would've seen it after less than two and a half minutes of explanation. But, of course, they couldn't find an 8-year old stupid enough to have anything to do with Brexit.
In an article in the Financial Times, he (David Frost) accused the EU of "legal purism" and called for "pragmatic solutions between friends, not the imposition of one side's rules on the other"

"LEGAL PURISM"? No kidding. How about legal text improvisation? Variations on agreements changing everything as you feel without any need to get any agreement? So no agreement, no chance of a disagreement. Brilliant. Except for legal professionals that would turn in their graves even if not dead.,,


The EU is of course totally correct in insisting there is a border between EU and UK- so that lower quality goods, produced on a different standard, by workers with low wages and low protection - do not find their way to EU via the NI back door. 100%.

It is abundantly clear now that Johnson and Frost knew exactly that this was a real issue, but they wanted the Deal signed come what may (!) - and Johnson just said- just sign, we will ignore it later and get the EU to back down. The EU will not back down, quite rightly so.

So we have now gone from 'WE HOLD ALL THE CARDS'' to 'PLEASE LET US SELL YOU OUR SAUSAGES' - it would be hilarious if it was not so pathetic.

So no, Tom, Brexit is NOT done- and no-one knows yet, what it actually means.
Well the fishermen, the farmers and producers, small businesses, medium ones and large ones, financial services, and so many more - they now know they were sold nothing but lies.
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  #29865  
Old 09.06.2021, 10:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well the fishermen, the farmers and producers, small businesses, medium ones and large ones, and so many more - they now know they were sold nothing but lies.
Who sold them lies?

It wasn't the Tories. In the 2016 EU referendum, many more Tories MPs voted to remain rather than leave the EU.

It was the British electorate who voted to leave. It was a referendum (you know - direct democracy and all that...)
There simply was not enough information available at the time for people to make an informed decision nor enough time to obtain that information. That, in my opinion, was the gravest mistake by the Tories in this whole fiasco, especially David Cameron.


It's getting pretty tedious for me to read about you Swiss living in Switzerland, under the direct democracy decision making process who feel fit to criticise another country when they vote with the same voting method.

And then you bang on about left-of-Labour making a better job of it all - whilst living in Switzerland which isn't exactly the last bastion of socialism.

Please explain why you aren't being a complete hypocrite?
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  #29866  
Old 09.06.2021, 10:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Er,

Northern Ireland is part of the UK (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

Northern Ireland remains part of the EU (precluding a hard border with Ireland)

Ergo the UK has not separated completely from the EU.

Q.E.D. Brexit is not over.
<<United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland>> somehow doesn't sound part of it.

I'm totally surprised. Northern Ireland staid in the EU? Then why couldn't Scotland stay?
Or is the devil in the "and"? If it were <<United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Scotland>> they could have?


That island across from the NL and F is definitely the weirdest construct in my eyes.
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Old 09.06.2021, 10:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Tom is playing semantics.

Brexit, as in the act of leaving the EU, is over but the repercussions of that action definitely aren’t.
The repercussions of staying would not have been clear either . Deeper and deeper integration and all that .

The option of retaining the status quo was never on the table .

So the argument that Brexit is bad because we don’t want change is only half the picture .
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  #29868  
Old 09.06.2021, 10:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No-one, but no-one knows what Brexit is- so how can it be ... over!?
Seeing you admit to not knowing what Brexit is , you sure have a lot of negative things to say about it
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  #29869  
Old 09.06.2021, 10:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

You obviously do not read my posts ''And then you bang on about left-of-Labour making a better job of it all ''

I have again and again stated that the left of the labour party has a lot to answer for, and continues to do so.

You live in Switzerland too, remember. And I am British, my OH is British, my children and grandchildren are British, and we still have very close ties, including a property in UK, and UK only pensions, in Sterling, and yes, S1 provision for healthcare. We both have dual nationality now, but what difference does that make? Both of us worked all our adult life in the UK, gave it our all- so yes, I do feel entitled to comment, and despair about the current demise of the Great Britain we both loved. Probably been British longer than you and we both have worked all our adult lives for State edu and NHS. So forgive me if I say that I/we have a right to comment and to feel aggrieved. Not fat Swiss salary or pension for us, for sure - I don't begrudge yours- but ...faut pas pousser mémé dans les orties, as we say here.

There was not sufficient information, you are correct- but this was combined with lies, and more lies. About Northern Ireland quite recently. Johnson wanted to sign a Deal at all costs- and thought he could renege later and get the EU to back down on the terms he negotiated and signed- and they won't- What should they?

Switzerland is playing a similar stupid game now ...

Last edited by JackieH; 09.06.2021 at 10:46.
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  #29870  
Old 09.06.2021, 10:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

As for Referendums and direct democracy- you have been here long enough to know that all Parties and the Government have to publish detailed booklets stating pros and cons, and possible problems- so that the electorate can make an informed decision, or as informed a decision as possible.

Did this happen in the UK? NO:

Ah well, just a bit of a laugh to illustrate the stupidity of the current situation

https://youtu.be/mM1alrpgUM0
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  #29871  
Old 09.06.2021, 10:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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<<United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland>> somehow doesn't sound part of it.

I'm totally surprised. Northern Ireland staid in the EU? Then why couldn't Scotland stay?
Or is the devil in the "and"? If it were <<United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Scotland>> they could have?


That island across from the NL and F is definitely the weirdest construct in my eyes.
Northern Ireland (NI) is a unique case, they stayed in the EU because of the Good Friday Agreement.
When Brexit was proposed nobody considered the implications of the Good Friday Agreement and put forward a solution for NI, this is why we are now in this mess.
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  #29872  
Old 09.06.2021, 10:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Northern Ireland (NI) is a unique case, they stayed in the EU because of the Good Friday Agreement.
When Brexit was proposed nobody considered the implications of the Good Friday Agreement and put forward a solution for NI, this is why we are now in this mess.
Why not a hard commercial border, and a soft normal border, just like we have with the surrounding EU?

Tom
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Old 09.06.2021, 10:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Switzerland is playing a similar stupid game now ...
And rightly so.

Tom
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Old 09.06.2021, 11:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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.....There was not sufficient information, you are correct- but this was combined with lies, and more lies. About Northern Ireland quite recently. Johnson wanted to sign a Deal at all costs- and thought he could renege later and get the EU to back down on the terms he negotiated and signed- and they won't- What should they?

Switzerland is playing a similar stupid game now ...
I see no similarities what so ever. Not to mention that there is no such thing as Swexit.

You keep complaining about not enough information in Switzerland before votes. There is tons and tons and tons of information out there from each side every time. The point is you need to look for it, tune into it, actually LISTEN TO/READ it.
Sorry it's not delivered on a silver platter. That's simply not how it works here. And rightly so. Opinion formation is individual and yes, it's a job. Direct democracy is not only a right, it's a duty so do invest the time necessary and stop complaining about the world not telling you what to do - as that exactly is the point.
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Old 09.06.2021, 11:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You obviously do not read my posts ''And then you bang on about left-of-Labour making a better job of it all ''

I have again and again stated that the left of the labour party has a lot to answer for, and continues to do so.

You live in Switzerland too, remember. And I am British, my OH is British, my children and grandchildren are British, and we still have very close ties, including a property in UK, and UK only pensions, in Sterling, and yes, S1 provision for healthcare. We both have dual nationality now, but what difference does that make? Both of us worked all our adult life in the UK, gave it our all- so yes, I do feel entitled to comment, and despair about the current demise of the Great Britain we both loved. Probably been British longer than you and we both have worked all our adult lives for State edu and NHS. So forgive me if I say that I/we have a right to comment and to feel aggrieved. Not fat Swiss salary or pension for us, for sure - I don't begrudge yours- but ...faut pas pousser mémé dans les orties, as we say here.

...
I think anybody who has been around on the EF long enough appreciates that you are concerned because you believe you are being put at a personal disadvantge by Brexit and what it may do to the value of your property , your pension etc

You have my full sympathy there . I hate to see people lose out .

But as yet I see no evidence that your property or pension are genuinely being eroded versus a remain scenario . The pound was slowly eroding in value versus the CHF long before anybody even came up with the idea of Brexit . This would thus have been a problem that would have affected you sooner or later anyway .

Trying to chalk it all up to Brexit is a tad short sighted IMHO .

In the longer term we don’t know if the trend will continue or maybe do something else . Long term predictions of forex have a large margin of error .
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Old 09.06.2021, 12:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why not a hard commercial border, and a soft normal border, just like we have with the surrounding EU?

Tom
You need to read Strand two of the Good Friday Agreement.
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  #29877  
Old 09.06.2021, 13:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why not a hard commercial border, and a soft normal border, just like we have with the surrounding EU?

Tom
Tom, frankly you have not got a clue!

The beauty of the current arrangement is that it allows Unionists to pretend that they are still part of a strong union with Great Britain while Republicans can pretend they live in a United Ireland. A Unionist and a Republican can go into a post office in NI, ask for a passport application and walk out with two different forms (usually the assistant can tell by the accent which form to hand out: Irish or UK). Everyone in NI is a dual citizen so they can be whatever they want to be and by extension they are all EU citizens.

The border commission of 1921 never completed their work so there is no agreed physical border. In the 80s we used to patrol this none existed border and when you encounter a British patrol the big debate between the officers was if we were on the right side of the imaginary line. Since no one knew the usual conclusion was to return to barracks and pretend the encounter never happened! That is how far from reality the border is.

To allow the EU and the UK to meet their trade agreements under WTO rules there must be a functioning border and as bad as it is the Irish Sea is the only solution because trying to survey and officially agree the land border would be an even bigger can of worms to open up.

I don’t know of any other border where all the citizens of a third state are also citizens of the EU. Everyone in NI still retain the same rights as before BREXIT, the still get EU health cards, participate in the Rasmussen program etc...

It is not remotely like the CH/EU situation.
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Old 09.06.2021, 13:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You need to read Strand two of the Good Friday Agreement.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46988529

Tom
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Old 09.06.2021, 13:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The border commission of 1921 never completed their work so there is no agreed physical border. In the 80s we used to patrol this none existed border and when you encounter a British patrol the big debate between the officers was if we were on the right side of the imaginary line. Since no one knew the usual conclusion was to return to barracks and pretend the encounter never happened! That is how far from reality the border is.

This type of border disagreement might be about whether the border passes to the left or to the right or indeed down the middle of a given field.

Maybe there might be remote farmhouses, the country of which might be disputed, and some even who may be milking that ambiguity for personal gain. But all in all there aren't going to be very many of them.

The type of border stuff the EU is concerned about is German supermarkets gaining an unfair competitive advantage bringing stuff in from the UK that might not conform to EU rules, or that at least needs to have duties payed.

Unless this stuff is actually being produced in one of the very few aforementioned remote farmhouses, the precise location of the border is not going to come into it because it should be clear where the goods come from and where they are heading.

And if it is coming from these remote farmhouses, the volume is going to be so insignificant that it's not going to bring the EU crashing down. It wouldn't be the only place in the EU where border guards turn a blind eye to this or that indiscretion, provided it doesn't get out of hand.
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Old 09.06.2021, 14:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why not a hard commercial border, and a soft normal border, just like we have with the surrounding EU?

Tom
Now that's a solution. Free movement of people between (part of) the UK and the EU.

OTOH that might not be very popular to Brexiters
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