Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #29921  
Old 10.06.2021, 10:38
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post


Nothing surprises anymore. Maybe they were thinking of football teams?
Does England have a football team?
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #29922  
Old 10.06.2021, 10:42
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Will be interesting to see how the Gibraltar situation is finalised.
Spain will give us back Menorca and we will give them Giraltar in return.

Spain will then cede Ceuta and Melilla to Moroccco and will receive a 60 year lease on the Lesser King Edward Islands (South) in return.

The Falklands will be ceded to Paraguay just to wind up the Argentinians.
Reply With Quote
  #29923  
Old 10.06.2021, 10:45
Ato Ato is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,883
Groaned at 26 Times in 26 Posts
Thanked 3,627 Times in 1,475 Posts
Ato has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
The term republic is however commonly used to avoid ambiguity in situations where it makes a difference whether the speaker is referring to the geographical island of Ireland or to the country.

People professing allegiance to the republic often even call themselves republicans. So it's hardly a dirty word.
Standard introduction goes along the lines of.
"I'm from Ireland"
"From the north or south?"
"South"
"Is that the one that belongs to the UK"
"No, I'm from the Republic" or when feeling a bit more confrontational "None of it belongs to the UK"

It's convenient to have something prevent ambiguity. It's peculiar in that a lot of countries have their full name as "The Republic of France", or "The United Mexican States" and have a shorthand that is not ambiguous.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ato for this useful post:
  #29924  
Old 10.06.2021, 11:12
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,504
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,646 Times in 18,685 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Standard introduction goes along the lines of.
"I'm from Ireland"
"From the north or south?"
"South"
"Is that the one that belongs to the UK"
"No, I'm from the Republic" or when feeling a bit more confrontational "None of it belongs to the UK"

It's convenient to have something prevent ambiguity. It's peculiar in that a lot of countries have their full name as "The Republic of France", or "The United Mexican States" and have a shorthand that is not ambiguous.
I live in "The Republic and Canton of Ticino".

"The official name of the canton is Republic and Canton of Ticino (Italian: Repubblica e Cantone Ticino) and the two-letter code is TI. It is one of the four cantons of Switzerland officially referred to as "republics", along with Geneva, Neuchâtel and Jura."

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #29925  
Old 10.06.2021, 11:50
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 6,563
Groaned at 390 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 9,159 Times in 4,281 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Crazy was when British diplomats used to refer to Eire in their discussions at EU meets as many other diplomats had not a clue what state they were referring to.
Well; To eire is human; but contrition felt for the crime distinguishes the virtuous from the wicked.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank bowlie for this useful post:
  #29926  
Old 10.06.2021, 11:53
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Zurich
Posts: 559
Groaned at 78 Times in 56 Posts
Thanked 1,230 Times in 626 Posts
John William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
According to the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office Rockall is in the UK.

The Irish Govt., along with others, does not agree.
The Rockall dispute posts are in sore need of a correction because in the event of Scotland voting for independence
from the UK, as a result of any vote for independence returning a majority Yes vote for independence.
Then Rockall will become part of the Kingdom of Scotland which in fact she already is a part of Scotland
but not shared with whats left of the UK after independence.
Reply With Quote
  #29927  
Old 10.06.2021, 13:32
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 3,498
Groaned at 411 Times in 307 Posts
Thanked 3,590 Times in 1,859 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Your order includes st2lemans too? Or just JackieH?

It is a fairly decent pissing contest. Let's let both sides vent, not only one. Otherwise we're hypocrites.
It was Tom, the other one, who started the ball rolling. A) questionning my right to comment on UK matters b) mis-representing totally what I said c) calling me a hypocrite. I think I am totally entitled to 'vent' about this.

Yes, stay on topic I say- and no personal attacks.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JackieH for this useful post:
  #29928  
Old 10.06.2021, 13:59
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
It was Tom, the other one, who started the ball rolling. A) questionning my right to comment on UK matters b) mis-representing totally what I said c) calling me a hypocrite. I think I am totally entitled to 'vent' about this.

Yes, stay on topic I say- and no personal attacks.
It takes two to tango.

I think if you scroll back over this thread you will find that you have been baiting quite heavily. It's not polite discourse to call people liars. When people have offered you answers to your questions in good faith you have ignored their suggestions and just repeated what you said previously.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #29929  
Old 10.06.2021, 14:08
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 17,051
Groaned at 649 Times in 502 Posts
Thanked 25,843 Times in 10,415 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
It was Tom, the other one, who started the ball rolling. A) questionning my right to comment on UK matters b) mis-representing totally what I said c) calling me a hypocrite. I think I am totally entitled to 'vent' about this.
I didn't write that you shouldn't comment on U.K. matters but criticising the method and not accepting the result in a direct-democracy referendum whilst living in a country where that is the basic way in which policy changes are made does seem a trifle...what?

Personally, I think Switzerland thrives in spite of direct democracy and not because of it.
That's a credit to efficient Swiss government and not a slight on the people.

I also think that the U.K. was not prepared for a referendum in that the population were not given enough information.
The fact that politicians and others campaigned (successfully) for a Brexit vote is neither here nor there - that's free speech and is part of the democratic process.


I see that you still haven't started an initiative to gain enough signatures so that Switzerland can re-visit joining the E.U. as a full member.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander (or something like that).

Last edited by Tom1234; 10.06.2021 at 14:29.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #29930  
Old 10.06.2021, 14:30
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,044
Groaned at 269 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 8,277 Times in 3,649 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Standard introduction goes along the lines of.
"I'm from Ireland"
"From the north or south?"
"South"
"Is that the one that belongs to the UK"
"No, I'm from the Republic" or when feeling a bit more confrontational "None of it belongs to the UK"

It's convenient to have something prevent ambiguity. It's peculiar in that a lot of countries have their full name as "The Republic of France", or "The United Mexican States" and have a shorthand that is not ambiguous.
Only in your mind. If you’re Irish you can tell once they open their mouth if they are northern and if they are unionists or republicans.
Reply With Quote
  #29931  
Old 10.06.2021, 14:44
Ato Ato is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,883
Groaned at 26 Times in 26 Posts
Thanked 3,627 Times in 1,475 Posts
Ato has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Only in your mind. If you’re Irish you can tell once they open their mouth if they are northern and if they are unionists or republicans.
Sorry Jim, I've had this conversation many times with many people. Many people out of the British Isles and a fair number within them cannot spot the difference in accents.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ato for this useful post:
  #29932  
Old 10.06.2021, 15:08
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Baselland
Posts: 569
Groaned at 19 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 699 Times in 347 Posts
LtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Personally, I think Switzerland thrives in spite of direct democracy and not because of it.
That's a credit to efficient Swiss government and not a slight on the people.
Interesting opinion: Switzerland thrives because its “efficient” government does it best to subvert direct democracy. The UK government is inefficient because it doesn’t give two hoots for its electorate once in power.

My take is that you do not approve of direct democracy. Perhaps things are a bit better around here because even a subverted DD tends to keep a check on our dear leaders?
Reply With Quote
  #29933  
Old 10.06.2021, 16:10
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I wouldn't describe the Swiss government as efficient.

The whole way people get put forward to a place where they can even be considered suitable for office is very much "design by committee" and not very meritocratic. The system is biased towards getting people into the Bundesrat who are chummy and sing along and tow the line rather than being too different. That leads to stability and not much ever changing, which can be good or bad depending on the matter at hand.

I think Switzerland does well precisely because

1) the government is spineless and useless
2) the government knows its useless and thus doesn't rush headlong into anything but keeps on checking back and asking whether they are doing the right thing.

The real power is wielded by all the various think tanks and lobbying organizations, who all try to act with constraint because they don't want to overstep the mark.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #29934  
Old 10.06.2021, 19:19
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 9,833
Groaned at 548 Times in 399 Posts
Thanked 13,198 Times in 6,851 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I wouldn't describe the Swiss government as efficient.
What's the aim, and what are the criteria for efficiency?
The answer probably applies to every government (state altogether) that's supposed to work for the people.

I'd say the aim is economic wellbeing, plus giving hope to the current grownups for a better life for their offspring - see social mobility, among other stuff.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #29935  
Old 10.06.2021, 20:45
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I wouldn't describe the Swiss government as efficient.

The whole way people get put forward to a place where they can even be considered suitable for office is very much "design by committee" and not very meritocratic. The system is biased towards getting people into the Bundesrat who are chummy and sing along and tow the line rather than being too different. That leads to stability and not much ever changing, which can be good or bad depending on the matter at hand.

I think Switzerland does well precisely because

1) the government is spineless and useless
2) the government knows its useless and thus doesn't rush headlong into anything but keeps on checking back and asking whether they are doing the right thing.

The real power is wielded by all the various think tanks and lobbying organizations, who all try to act with constraint because they don't want to overstep the mark.
In case my point wasn’t clear , I was suggesting the UK government is the opposite . All the PMs , well in my lifetime at least , have been self styled heroes who thought they were smarter then anybody else .

Sometimes it takes leaders like that , because there are problems that you cannot solve through consensus and playing it low .

But obviously Switzerland has by and large done better with their system .
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #29936  
Old 10.06.2021, 23:59
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
What's the aim, and what are the criteria for efficiency?
The answer probably applies to every government (state altogether) that's supposed to work for the people.

I'd say the aim is economic wellbeing, plus giving hope to the current grownups for a better life for their offspring - see social mobility, among other stuff.
I don’t know if a good government should necessarily be a good architect , planning the future in great detail .

Visionary governments often tend to get overly dogmatic

I think a good government is ultimately one that gives the people what they want . Right or wrong. That’s what democracy is about .
Reply With Quote
  #29937  
Old 11.06.2021, 00:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 11,316
Groaned at 399 Times in 325 Posts
Thanked 17,303 Times in 8,753 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
It was Tom, the other one, who started the ball rolling. A) questionning my right to comment on UK matters b) mis-representing totally what I said c) calling me a hypocrite. I think I am totally entitled to 'vent' about this.

Yes, stay on topic I say- and no personal attacks.
I know you have all the rights to comment on Brexit and UK politics, much more than some of us here. (me, curley, musicchick, ursmax, st2lemans etc)

I really appreciate your input, in spite of all those silly attempts at gaslighting you. I'm gonna read this thread as long as the two sides are represented.

Last edited by greenmount; 11.06.2021 at 01:10.
Reply With Quote
  #29938  
Old 11.06.2021, 11:40
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I think a good government is ultimately one that gives the people what they want . Right or wrong. That’s what democracy is about .
I can't agree with this, especially when "what the people want" is determined by referenda with low rates of turn-out and wafer-thin margins. Sometimes (Brexit being a prime example) the people just don't have sufficient information, nor the legal and/or economic knowledge, to make the best decision. Additionally, governments make many diplomatic decisions with long-term consequences that the man on the street would never make—invoovement in foreign wars, for example—which may sometimes be necessary but unpopular. And finally, in conservative countries like Switzerland, there might be no social support.structures if it weren't for governmental oversight that didn't strictly follow the will of the people. (Even in Switzerland, the government has to find ways to work around "what the people want"—again, based on low voter turnout—to enact legislation that doesn't contravene other local and international laws.)
Reply With Quote
  #29939  
Old 11.06.2021, 12:49
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,044
Groaned at 269 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 8,277 Times in 3,649 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
I can't agree with this, especially when "what the people want" is determined by referenda with low rates of turn-out and wafer-thin margins. Sometimes (Brexit being a prime example) the people just don't have sufficient information, nor the legal and/or economic knowledge, to make the best decision. Additionally, governments make many diplomatic decisions with long-term consequences that the man on the street would never make—invoovement in foreign wars, for example—which may sometimes be necessary but unpopular. And finally, in conservative countries like Switzerland, there might be no social support.structures if it weren't for governmental oversight that didn't strictly follow the will of the people. (Even in Switzerland, the government has to find ways to work around "what the people want"—again, based on low voter turnout—to enact legislation that doesn't contravene other local and international laws.)
Comparing the U.K. to either Switzerland or Ireland just does not fly. I have voted in both Irish and Swiss referenda and I’d say that both provide adequate information.

I think tradition plays a big part in it. Switzerland and Ireland have a tradition of making strategic (how do I want the country run in the long term) and tactical (who do I want to carry it out in the short term) and certain rules of thumb have grown up such as never punishing a government with a vote in a referendum. This is very different to other countries such as the U.K. where all politics are party politics. It should not be surprising if voters from one tradition don’t do so well when asked to make a decision under the rules of another tradition.

In Switzerland and Ireland the decision is owned by the people and that means that revisiting the decision is much easier. Politicians are not invested in the decision they can simply hand it back saying we can’t make your decision work, you need to come up with something else. Likewise a government loosing a referendum they supported does not create a crisis in either country, it is just how they work.

Using a referendum in the U.K. was always going to be problematic because it is not their tradition.
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #29940  
Old 11.06.2021, 12:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 3,498
Groaned at 411 Times in 307 Posts
Thanked 3,590 Times in 1,859 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Indeed- combined with the fact no information was given about the realities of Brexit and which form it would take. NONE, apart from lies and more lies, before, during and after.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
europe




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Latest Referendum, what will be consequences for EU (C permit and B permit) holders? expat2014 Permits/visas/government 3 11.02.2014 07:59
Importing vehicles and the VAT consequences in Switzerland from France BEFO Finance/banking/taxation 6 07.08.2013 14:11
The (Available in CH) Dog Food Review Thread meloncollie Pet corner 44 08.05.2012 19:15
Common-law marriage and consequences in CH Mishto Family matters/health 9 01.10.2011 21:03
Something for the Brits: M&S in CH mark Daily life 11 15.11.2007 11:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0