View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen? |
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union
|    | 49 | 23.11% |
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU
|    | 68 | 32.08% |
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK
|    | 22 | 10.38% |
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing
|    | 23 | 10.85% |
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us
|    | 17 | 8.02% |
I don't really care
|    | 33 | 15.57% |  | | | 
11.06.2021, 13:21
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: ZH
Posts: 1,878
Groaned at 25 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 3,602 Times in 1,470 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Indeed- combined with the fact no information was given about the realities of Brexit and which form it would take. NONE, apart from lies and more lies, before, during and after. | | | | | It would have been impossible to give an accurate image of how things would look beforehand, there was about 2 years of trying to flesh out an agreement with the EU that could have gone many ways.
| The following 3 users would like to thank Ato for this useful post: | | 
11.06.2021, 14:43
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,792
Groaned at 610 Times in 516 Posts
Thanked 21,708 Times in 11,396 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | It would have been impossible to give an accurate image of how things would look beforehand, there was about 2 years of trying to flesh out an agreement with the EU that could have gone many ways. | | | | | You mean the problem was, and still is, the people proposing Brexit had no clue or plan of how Brexit should look like in detail.
| The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post: | | 
11.06.2021, 14:55
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: ZH
Posts: 1,878
Groaned at 25 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 3,602 Times in 1,470 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | You mean the problem was, and still is, the people proposing Brexit had no clue or plan of how Brexit should look like in detail. | | | | | Yes, and a curse of referendums is that people can vote on things without a full understanding of the possible repercussions or benefits.
On the other side, the stay camp had it easy, vote stay and things stay the same.
| The following 2 users would like to thank Ato for this useful post: | | 
11.06.2021, 15:42
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 17,042
Groaned at 649 Times in 502 Posts
Thanked 25,827 Times in 10,410 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | You mean the problem was, and still is, the people proposing Brexit had no clue or plan of how Brexit should look like in detail. | | | | | I think one of the big problems was the same sort of problem the U.K. experienced when in the E.U.
Namely you can't make a decision on foreign policy, imports, exports, trade tariffs, migration, borders and so on alone. There's always one or more other countries too and they have to be in agreement with whatever you decide.
Not too different from being in the E.U.
If, on the other hand, any country involved in the U.K. or with a wish to be involved had said, upfront, before the referendum that if the U.K. left the E.U., they would guarantee that they would do x,y, and z and with conditions a,b,c then it would have far easier for the U.K. population to make an informed decision.
It wasn't going to happen though. In that regard, leaving the E.U. was a far more difficult and uncertain prospect than joining it in the first place.
| The following 3 users would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post: | | 
11.06.2021, 20:13
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SG
Posts: 9,827
Groaned at 548 Times in 399 Posts
Thanked 13,190 Times in 6,846 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | You mean the problem was, and still is, the people proposing Brexit had no clue or plan of how Brexit should look like in detail. | | | | | Nor did or do the Remainers. The "EU" from 40 years ago doesn't compare to what it is today, and most certainly neither to what it will be in 40 years.
| The following 5 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post: | | 
11.06.2021, 20:44
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SG
Posts: 9,827
Groaned at 548 Times in 399 Posts
Thanked 13,190 Times in 6,846 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | I don’t know if a good government should necessarily be a good architect , planning the future in great detail .
Visionary governments often tend to get overly dogmatic
I think a good government is ultimately one that gives the people what they want . Right or wrong. That’s what democracy is about . | | | | | Why then is it intentionally made difficult to change the constitution? (or its equivalent)
How many countries provide a clearly defined way to get it changed without say by parliament and/or government?
I think the US constitution has worded this very succinctly:
The population has the right to pursue happiness.
Which kinda creates an obligation by the government to create an environment that allows (fosters) this.
Sidenote:
originally that (difficult to change) applied to CH as well. When introduced in 1891, launching a Volksinitiative (a partial change of the federal constitution) required 50k signatures, 7.6% of the (male only) voters back then. Today it takes 100k votes, but to get it passed still requires a double majority (the majority of the votes and of the Cantons).
| 
11.06.2021, 21:09
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Why then is it intentionally made difficult to change the constitution? (or its equivalent)
How many countries provide a clearly defined way to get it changed without say by parliament and/or government?
I think the US constitution has worded this very succinctly:
The population has the right to pursue happiness.
Which kinda creates an obligation by the government to create an environment that allows (fosters) this.
| | | | | The constitution is not a policy blueprint.
It is a basic framework that lays down an outline for the functioning of law and should (ideally) be free of any ideological or partisan policy. The more difficult it is to change, the less partisan and ideological it should be.
In Switzerland the constitution is constantly being added to through the activity of popular referenda. These changes are (typically) partisan and ideological and provide direct instructions to the government regarding policy. But they can also easily be changed.
| 
11.06.2021, 21:45
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SG
Posts: 9,827
Groaned at 548 Times in 399 Posts
Thanked 13,190 Times in 6,846 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | The constitution is not a policy blueprint. | | | | | You seem to say in this post that it's good (can be appropriate or good) to keep fundamental stuff from being changed, at least from being changed on a whim. That's how I understand you here.
Yet you said it's the government's job to give the people what they want, "right or wrong".
To me that's a massive contradiction.
I agree that big changes need big hurdles. Like changing the constitution.
(btw, the Swiss one got changed just 13 times in the last 30 years by Volksinitiative, including the rather immaterial ones. And 23 times in the 120 years it exists. That doesn't meet my understanding of "constantly changed")
| 
11.06.2021, 23:32
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,041
Groaned at 269 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 8,271 Times in 3,646 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | It would have been impossible to give an accurate image of how things would look beforehand, there was about 2 years of trying to flesh out an agreement with the EU that could have gone many ways. | | | | | Of course it is impossible to say with certainty but that does not mean that a free for all with no attempt to keep people within the bounds of reality is the alternative.
At every Irish referendum there is a commission headed by a current or retired Justice of the Supreme Court who is responsible for ensuring the public receives accurate information. Their most important power is that they have the right to comment of what both sides are saying.
If you are involved in a TV debate the last thing you want is for the commission to issue a statement the following morning saying you told a pack of lies on TV the previous evening!
It definitely helps to keep things grounded in reality.
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
| 
11.06.2021, 23:42
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,041
Groaned at 269 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 8,271 Times in 3,646 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | In Switzerland the constitution is constantly being added to through the activity of popular referenda. These changes are (typically) partisan and ideological and provide direct instructions to the government regarding policy. But they can also easily be changed. | | | | | That is not the case as many of the referenda are challenges to the actions of parliament not changes to the constitution. It is the Swiss way for citizens to hold parliament to account.
| 
11.06.2021, 23:54
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,041
Groaned at 269 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 8,271 Times in 3,646 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Nor did or do the Remainers. The "EU" from 40 years ago doesn't compare to what it is today, and most certainly neither to what it will be in 40 years. | | | | | Yes but there was not just one decision over the past 40 years. There were many decisions made by the UK parliament over that period committing the country to the EEC and eventually the EU. There was no need to hold referenda on it because that is how the UK is governed.
Just look at the number and content of EU relate referenda held in Ireland over the same period and you will get a feel for the decisions make by the UK parliament on behalf of its citizens.
| 
12.06.2021, 02:39
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SG
Posts: 9,827
Groaned at 548 Times in 399 Posts
Thanked 13,190 Times in 6,846 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | There was no need to hold referenda on it because that is how the UK is governed. | | | | | Exactly.
Yet now that some people are unhappy with a decision, they want to topple the entire thing. Not because the procedure is false but because they didn't get the desired outcome. Fundamentally, that's a complete disregard of democracy as it's been defined by and for the UK (the democratic elements the UK has).
| This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post: | | 
12.06.2021, 06:45
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,041
Groaned at 269 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 8,271 Times in 3,646 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Exactly.
Yet now that some people are unhappy with a decision, they want to topple the entire thing. Not because the procedure is false but because they didn't get the desired outcome. Fundamentally, that's a complete disregard of democracy as it's been defined by and for the UK (the democratic elements the UK has). | | | | | Yes but when you have an imaginary constitution, that is to be expected! To my knowledge the UK is the only Parliament of Westminster style democracy that does not have a written constitution of some type. If the process is we’ll make it up as we go along then it should not be surprising that everyone wants their own version.
| The following 2 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post: | | 
12.06.2021, 07:04
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SG
Posts: 9,827
Groaned at 548 Times in 399 Posts
Thanked 13,190 Times in 6,846 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Yes but when you have an imaginary constitution, that is to be expected! To my knowledge the UK is the only Parliament of Westminster style democracy that does not have a written constitution of some type. If the process is we’ll make it up as we go along then it should not be surprising that everyone wants their own version. | | | | | Those who lost will want the rules changed anyway when things go against them.
That's what happened e.g. last november when, here in CH with written regulations, a proposition failed because it passed in too few cantons. The Greens, main proponents of the Volksinitiative at hand, immediately demanded that the rules be changed by dropping the requirement for the double majority (popular vote plus the majority of the cantons). Of course they never raised any comparable demands when things went their way. I'm pretty sure the other parties have reacted in a similar way in the past, it's a human thing.
| This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post: | | 
12.06.2021, 10:45
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Those who lost will want the rules changed anyway when things go against them.
That's what happened e.g. last november when, here in CH with written regulations, a proposition failed because it passed in too few cantons. The Greens, main proponents of the Volksinitiative at hand, immediately demanded that the rules be changed by dropping the requirement for the double majority (popular vote plus the majority of the cantons). Of course they never raised any comparable demands when things went their way. I'm pretty sure the other parties have reacted in a similar way in the past, it's a human thing. | | | | | Or in the USA how the Electoral Council is always called into question by those who lost an election because of it, and only afterwards.
People will always attempt to change the constitution and the voting laws to make it easier for them to win.
| This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post: | | 
12.06.2021, 10:48
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | At every Irish referendum there is a commission headed by a current or retired Justice of the Supreme Court who is responsible for ensuring the public receives accurate information. Their most important power is that they have the right to comment of what both sides are saying.
If you are involved in a TV debate the last thing you want is for the commission to issue a statement the following morning saying you told a pack of lies on TV the previous evening!
| | | | | This only works if the justice in question is totally impartial.
In a debate such as that over Brexit I think nobody who threw in their weight was impartial.
| 
12.06.2021, 11:05
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,041
Groaned at 269 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 8,271 Times in 3,646 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Those who lost will want the rules changed anyway when things go against them.
That's what happened e.g. last november when, here in CH with written regulations, a proposition failed because it passed in too few cantons. The Greens, main proponents of the Volksinitiative at hand, immediately demanded that the rules be changed by dropping the requirement for the double majority (popular vote plus the majority of the cantons). Of course they never raised any comparable demands when things went their way. I'm pretty sure the other parties have reacted in a similar way in the past, it's a human thing. | | | | | But it did not gain any credibility beyond its only little group and that is the big difference.
I think any other consideration though is that there is no process available to the loosing side in the UK to challenge the result beyond endless bellyaching - there is no way to force them to bring it to an end. In Ireland any citizen can take a case to the Supreme Court if they don’t agree with the outcome, in Switzerland a new referendum can be launched, but in the UK you can just continue to bellyache.
| This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post: | | 
12.06.2021, 11:22
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,041
Groaned at 269 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 8,271 Times in 3,646 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | This only works if the justice in question is totally impartial.
In a debate such as that over Brexit I think nobody who threw in their weight was impartial. | | | | | This is true, but then there is a long tradition of decision making by referendum in Ireland as well and it is just the accepted approach. Even on very controversial subjects such as gay marriage or abortion, the opposition usually dies down within 12 months or so. The people take their argument to the Supreme Court and that is where it ends.
Probably taking BREXIT as a learning exercise was not a good idea.
| The following 3 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post: | | 
12.06.2021, 13:51
| Senior Member | | Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Basel
Posts: 410
Groaned at 24 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 661 Times in 265 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | This is true, but then there is a long tradition of decision making by referendum in Ireland as well and it is just the accepted approach. Even on very controversial subjects such as gay marriage or abortion, the opposition usually dies down within 12 months or so. The people take their argument to the Supreme Court and that is where it ends.
Probably taking BREXIT as a learning exercise was not a good idea. | | | | | Same-sex couples in Ireland can be excused for feeling some unease about the fact that their relatively newfound right is prescribed in the name of the 'Most Holy Trinity'.
A Constitution that is not embodied in a single document may not be such a bad thing.
| 
12.06.2021, 15:05
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Nyon
Posts: 6,560
Groaned at 390 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 9,156 Times in 4,280 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in
At the G7 meeting Boris is pushing for compromise on the NI situation...
So he makes an agreement, refuses to implement it, and then wants compromise. Barsteward.
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 9 (0 members and 9 guests) | | Thread Tools | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:16. | |