The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[22 yards]

	Quote:	idefix
	seeing that the whole country voted for leave (except london, scotland and northern ireland, not to mention several other areas of england, in fact more than 48% of the whole union) it shows how much the british care about the eu

ftfy.

[baboon]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	So the Irish will be told to speak Gaelic and ignored when they speak English?

No, not "told". They choose it for themselves when they joined. Of course the fact that English was at that point already picked by the UK may have influenced their choice.

Going forward I guess they have to make a new choice.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	RufusB
	And the whole country didn't vote for leave, that is the issue. A very small majority did.

That is how democracy works.

	Quote:	RufusB
	The older generation in particular - and they had the numbers to provide the tipping point in many areas - have been screwed over countless times. This was just the first time, really, in a long time that they've been able to make the point.

But according to the foamy mouthed Guardian eating lentil readers they shouldn't count - and only votes from young people who will have to live with the vote should - and add 16 year olds too - as long as they vote Remain.

Perhaps those who have lived through being in the EU and being out of the EU should be respected - and listened too.

It is easy to pretend that all Brexit voters are tattooed Britain First wankers called Barry - who tell Pakis to eff off (which has been going on for 50 years), towelheads to eff off (fairly new one but then insulting the Irish is so 1970s), tell Ities to eff off, the Frogs to eff off and enjoy nothing more than 17 pints of lager and a good fight of a Friday and Saturday evening.

But trust me - I've been to Sandbanks - and that just isn't the case.

[RufusB]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	That is how democracy works. But according to the foamy mouthed Guardian eating lentil readers they shouldn't count - and only votes from young people who will have to live with the vote should - and add 16 year olds too - as long as they vote Remain. Perhaps those who have lived through being in the EU and being out of the EU should be respected - and listened too. It is easy to pretend that all Brexit voters are tattooed Britain First wankers called Barry - who tell Pakis to eff off (which has been going on for 50 years), towelheads to eff off (fairly new one but then insulting the Irish is so 1970s), tell Ities to eff off, the Frogs to eff off and enjoy nothing more than 17 pints of lager and a good fight of a Friday and Saturday evening. But trust me - I've been to Sandbanks - and that just isn't the case.

Oh, I agree with you, was simply pointing this out to whoever I quoted - Idefix?


I can't manage more than the 5 pints, personally.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	That is how democracy works.

The fact people do not seem to understand this basic concept is quite frankly worrying.

By that logic, not everyone voted for anything in the history of UK politics. Ever.

[RufusB]

	Quote:	Chuff
	The fact people do not seem to understand this basic concept is quite frankly worrying.

It's collective shock and disbelief, isn't it? "Everyone" expected a similar result to the Scottish referendum where all the noise was "leave" and yet when backs were to the wall, they stayed.


It wasn't all sound and fury signifying nothing this time.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	RufusB
	It's collective shock and disbelief, isn't it? "Everyone" expected a similar result to the Scottish referendum where all the noise was "leave" and yet when backs were to the wall, they stayed. It wasn't all sound and fury signifying nothing this time.

Independent Scotland*
























*As long as it is Independent within the EU

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Chuff
	The fact people do not seem to understand this basic concept is quite frankly worrying. By that logic, not everyone voted for anything in the history of UK politics. Ever.

Worrying isn't the right term, Terrifying is more fit.


The fall of Eden was only 33%, and even that depends on if the snake was allowed to vote.

[SOBEIT]

I'm all for triggering article 50, but you have to realise that you are not dealing with Greece here, you are dealing with the 5th biggest economy in the world and you are not just going to walk all over us. You get away with dominating the weak, that's how bullies work, but I'm afraid that you are not going to walk over the UK, whatever the cost. Just look at your stock market and you will see that it has cost the eu more than the UK. I'm all for free movement of the true eu population but not for all the refugees that Merkel agrees to let in. This is for the EU'S population as much as the UK'S. Why do you think we should pay to deal with the EU more than the US or Japan does. They don't have freedom of movement do they. And maybe if you try to screw us with tariffs that you don't put on other countries you can fund your own defence in the future and trust me that's not cheap.

[RufusB]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	Independent Scotland* *As long as it is Independent within the EU

Indeed. There's a lot of confusion about "farm fresh" and "free range" too. Despite euphemistic spin, they are not, in fact, the same thing.

[baboon]

	Quote:	SOBEIT
	I'm all for triggering article 50, but you have to realise that you are not dealing with Greece here, you are dealing with the 5th biggest economy in the world

6th since Friday

	Quote:	SOBEIT
	Why do you think we should pay to deal with the EU more than the US or Japan does. They don't have freedom of movement do they. And maybe if you try to screw us with tariffs that you don't put on other countries you can fund your own defence in the future and trust me that's not cheap.

AFAIK no-one's suggesting that. The problem for the UK is that without a trade agreement they will be on the same WTO terms as the US or Japan.

Switzerland and Norway have looked at that and decided it is worth paying the price (cash, regulations and freedom of movement) to be part of the Single Market.

[CathHarmony]

	Quote:	baboon
	6th since Friday AFAIK no-one's suggesting that. The problem for the UK is that without a trade agreement they will be on the same WTO terms as the US or Japan. Switzerland and Norway have looked at that and decided it is worth paying the price (cash, regulations and freedom of movement) to be part of the Single Market.

Switzerland is trying to negotiate to reduce the inflow from the EU, and they don't have near the population density problem England (England vs the UK as a whole) has.

Plus they kick you out shortly after you are of no economic use to them! so they do actually have quite some control of immigration,

England doesnt have this, you arrive work a few months in a shit job make yourself unemployed/homeless/pregnant and you are given a 'free' house and healthcare and a 'salary', Switzerland you get deported.

Its no wonder Switzerland are doing allright.

Dont know why they are complaining

[baboon]

	Quote:	CathHarmony
	Switzerland is trying to negotiate to reduce the inflow from the EU, and they don't have near the population density problem England (England vs the UK as a whole) has.

If you want to be fair in that comparison then also exclude the Alps from the Swiss land area as you exclude Scotland - this is also basically empty for similar reasons. The Swiss Mittelland has a density of 450 persons / km2. England 413.

	Quote:	CathHarmony
	...you arrive work a few months in a shit job make yourself unemployed/homeless/pregnant and you are given a 'free' house and healthcare and a 'salary'

Healthcare basically applies here (EHIC or compulsory insurance if you're working here), housing you normally won't get in the UK either and social security in the UK you have to wait 5 years for under the new agreement.

[Kosti]

	Quote:	CathHarmony
	Switzerland is trying to negotiate to reduce the inflow from the EU, and they don't have near the population density problem England (England vs the UK as a whole) has. Plus they kick you out shortly after you are of no economic use to them! so they do actually have quite some control of immigration, England doesnt have this, you arrive work a few months in a shit job make yourself unemployed/homeless/pregnant and you are given a 'free' house and healthcare and a 'salary', Switzerland you get deported. Its no wonder Switzerland are doing allright. Dont know why they are complaining

Again, its the local laws, not the EU.

Where the EU is concerned, CH and UK have accepted the same deal in immigration.
That goes along with an obligation not to discriminate between citizens and EU residents living in that country.

The difference is, it is harder to get benefits in CH as compared to the UK, for the Swiss in CH as well.
Which is why foreigners without work or unemployment insurance are out of luck.

That is the "control" that the Swiss have, because their own citizens are subject to higher barriers to keep working as well.

That is what Cameron wanted, to keep the relative ease in which UK citizens can hang onto benefits, while EU residents would not be able to.
The EU allowed some additional barriers. Cameron wanted more, and what he got was dismissed by the press as thin gruel.

I never heard anybody in the Leave or Remain campaigns explain this much nuance.

Edit: the per capita EU immigration into CH has been twice as high as the UK
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...ants)_YB16.png

[RufusB]

	Quote:	baboon
	If you want to be fair in that comparison then also exclude the Alps from the Swiss land area as you exclude Scotland - this is also basically empty for similar reasons. The Swiss Mittelland has a density of 450 persons / km2. England 413.

My mother-in-law will be delighted to know that she now lives in the barren unpopulated wilds... of a heavily populated tourist area.

[Odile]

Funny word 'democracy' as it means so many things to so many people. Most Europeans believe that the UK is not democratic at all, because of the FPP system (First Past the Post) - which allows no proportional representation at all and where a gvt can be elected via a very small % of the population via Consitutencies.
For those not au Fait with FPP, this means that if one Constituence, there are 100000 votes for one candidate, and 100001 for another- the 100000 votes just go in the bin, as well as those for other candidates. If like me and OH, you live in a Constituency (voting area) which does not represent your views- you can spend all your life voting at elections- knowing full well that you might as well not bother.

The Swiss are so used to Referendums that for them it is the norm. But not the UK- where a referendum just serves as advisory to the Government. With a result so close- it's not clear at all.

Here is a comment to that effect made by a friend in the UK:

Legally, according to Geoffrey Robertson, a barrister who is Master of the Bench at Middle Temple (probably makes him pretty much an expert then) Article 50 is not just invoked. It states that 'A member state may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements'. As our constitutional requirements do not allow for decision making by referendum, any referendum is advisory only - this one has advised Parliament that the country is pretty much split down the middle. In order to leave the EU, MPs must first repeal the 1972 European Communities Act. If an MP thinks that it is in the country's best interest to stay in the EU, they have a duty to vote against repealing the act, and if they think it is in the country's best interests to leave, they have a duty to vote the opposite way. Article 50 will only be deemed to be invoked if the Act is repealed. So, whatever way you want this to go, the best way to make it happen is to lobby your MP (always supposing you've actually still got one after all these shenanigans).,

[Uncle Max]

	Quote:	idefix
	Seeing that the whole country voted for LEAVE (except London) it shows how much the British care about the EU

It wasn't just London but it's depressing how little regard people have for politics in general. Politics gets things done. There's a strong anti intellectual groove in Britain and politicians are seen only for their failures, not their reasonable successes. Try talking to folks about politics and you'll usually get haughty huffing and puffing, derisory talk and suspicious looks. Who's responsible for this political illiteracy? What can be done (as soon as this bar closes)?

	Quote:	RufusB
	Um. Hope you're poking fun here: the Queen is the head of state and has a Royal Prerogative, but any "power" she has she... hasn't, because it's all mostly all ceremonial. The PM consults her about some things but it's a courtesy. The elected Parliament make the decisions. Technically she's Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, too, but I can't imagine that cutting any practical dice in warzones. She can grant honours and things are done in her name - passports etc, and I think UK police officers swear some kind of fealty to the crown meaning they're never, technically, off duty - but it's the government, not her.

She wouldn't but she could. Curious, innit?

	Quote:	RufusB
	The older generation in particular - and they had the numbers to provide the tipping point in many areas - have been screwed over countless times. This was just the first time, really, in a long time that they've been able to make the point.

I disagree; the older generation are the most spoilt generation in history.

Sincerely,

A lentil eating, sandal wearing Guardian reader. Up The Resolution!

[amogles]

	Quote:	Odile
	Funny word 'democracy' as it means so many things to so many people. Most Europeans believe that the UK is not democratic at all, because of the FPP system (First Past the Post) - which allows not proportional representation at all and where a gvt can be elected via s very small % of the population via Consitutencies. For those not au Fait with FPP, this means that if one Constituence, there are 100000 votes for one candidate, and 100001 for another- the 100000 votes just go in the bin, as well as those for other candidates. If like me and OH, you live in a Constituency (voting area) which does not represent your views- you can spend all your life voting at elections- knowing full well that you might as well not bother. The Swiss are so used to Referendums that for them it is the norm. But not the UK- where a referendum just serves ad advisory to the Government. Here is a comment to that effect made by a friend in the UK: Legally, according to Geoffrey Robertson, a barrister who is Master of the Bench at Middle Temple (probably makes him pretty much an expert then) Article 50 is not just invoked. It states that 'A member state may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements'. As our constitutional requirements do not allow for decision making by referendum, any referendum is advisory only - this one has advised Parliament that the country is pretty much split down the middle. In order to leave the EU, MPs must first repeal the 1972 European Communities Act. If an MP thinks that it is in the country's best interest to stay in the EU, they have a duty to vote against repealing the act, and if they think it is in the country's best interests to leave, they have a duty to vote the opposite way. Article 50 will only be deemed to be invoked if the Act is repealed. So, whatever way you want this to go, the best way to make it happen is to lobby your MP (always supposing you've actually still got one after all these shenanigans).,

So in other words, because the system has flaws and the democarcy has deficits, we shouldn't even try to be more democratic?

[RufusB]

[Don Molina]

	Quote:	CathHarmony
	Its no wonder Switzerland are doing allright. Dont know why they are complaining

Yeah, because that's why Switzerland is doing allright. The general structure of the economy, and the built up social capital, and some macroeconomic factors have little to do with it.

They're doing allright (sic) because they can deport lazy bum immigrants that "make themselves unemployed/homeless/pregnant", because who wouldn't, right?

Being unemployed and/or homeless is amazingly good fun.