The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Uncle Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	So in other words, because the system has flaws and the democarcy has deficits, we shouldn't even try to be more democratic?

It seems people quite like authoritarian figures, at the expense of fairness. Maybe we should ask the Monarch to return to Divine Rule. We could have bread and circuses and pay our taxes, fear the Lord and live in bliss. Just don't mess with afternoon tea and cat memes. Or maybe we could learn the name of our political representatives and hold them to account, which requires effort. Aargh.

[lewton]

	Quote:	Castro
	I'm of the firm opinion that a referendum should never have been called in the first place, it was political oportunism by Cameron to win the last general election and unfortunately it backfired. At the very least the terms of the referendum should have been better defined, such as a requirement for a two-thirds super majority just like for US Constitutional Amendments. To put it into perspective, another example would be our position on the death penalty. Successive polls in the UK have shown that if put to a vote a majority would vote to bring back hanging (certainly for paedophiles, terrorists and estate agents).Does that mean we should really bring it back because the majority want it, or should we decide that certain principles are too sacred to be subject to a simple majority vote? I think it was Churchill who said that Democracy is the least worst form of government.

You can't have referenda on human rights.
Therefore you can't have a referendum on same-sex marriage, abortion laws, freedom of religion, or capital punishment.

This does not mean you can't have a referendum on things like the constitution of the country (e.g. keep or abolish monarchy), international relations (EU, NATO, etc) or little details like a bridge from one side of lake Geneva to the other.

[dodgyken]

If parliament does ignore the referendum - which as we know they are perfectly entitled to do - then they'll also have to deal with a majority of the voting public (52% of a 72% turnout).

An MP creaming off a few extra quid for a duck house with be nothing compared to them ignore the public wish.

An MP is returned to parliament to serve his constituents - how long will his career last if he ignores them?

[amogles]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	If parliament does ignore the referendum - which as we know they are perfectly entitled to do - then they'll also have to deal with a majority of the voting public (52% of a 72% turnout). An MP creaming off a few extra quid for a duck house with be nothing compared to them ignore the public wish. An MP is returned to parliament to serve his constituents - how long will his career last if he ignores them?

Politicians often express concern that people are losing interest in politics and becoming increasingly cynical by either not voting or voting protest parties. Many politicians rightly understand this is a threat to the democractic system.

On the other hand politicains are openly discussing how they can ignore the outcome of a referendum.

Anybody joining the dots here?

[amogles]

	Quote:	lewton
	You can't have referenda on human rights.

Why not?

As long as human right are decided by unelected people in UN commissions, shouldn't the people have a say in whether they agree or not.

Suppose the UN were to decide that it is a human right that MPs can buy duck houses with public money, would you be fine if you could do nothing to stop that?

New bristles, same broom:


"Tiffany had never seen dwarfs on the Chalk, but up in the mountains they were always around, generally with a cart. They bought, and they sold, and for witches they made broomsticks. Very expensive broomsticks. On the other hand, witches seldom ever bought one. They were heirlooms, passed down the generations from witch to witch, sometimes needing a new handle, sometimes needing new bristles, but, of course, always remaining the same broomstick."


I Shall Wear Midnight, Terry Pratchett.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	amogles
	Politicians often express concern that people are losing interest in politics and becoming increasingly cynical by either not voting or voting protest parties. Many politicians rightly understand this is a threat to the democractic system. On the other hand politicains are openly discussing how they can ignore the outcome of a referendum. Anybody joining the dots here?

All politicians are voters but not all voters are politicians??

If the government ignores the referendum (no matter how many Guardian readers it offends in the process) - that will sound the start of the death of democracy.

[lewton]

	Quote:	amogles
	Why not? As long as human right are decided by unelected people in UN commissions, shouldn't the people have a say in whether they agree or not. Suppose the UN were to decide that it is a human right that MPs can buy duck houses with public money, would you be fine if you could do nothing to stop that?

I can't suppose such absurdities just because you feel like being funny.

[amogles]

Why the British said no to Europe

	Quote:	lewton
	I can't suppose such absurdities just because you feel like being funny.

You don't read Swift, do you?

[dodgyken]

	Quote:
	You don't read Swift, do you?

I did - briefly

[Uncle Max]

	Quote:	amogles
	Why the British said no to Europe

I tried reading that article but the venomous spittle and swivelling eyes put me off my Gipfeli.

Meanwhile, Cumberland Sausage could lose protected status. Maybe now people will realise that Cumberland sausage and Melton Mowbray pork pies aren't quite so visible on the international radar as Champagne or Grana Padano

	Quote:	Uncle Max
	I tried reading that article but the venomous spittle and swivelling eyes put me off my Gipfeli.

= "I never read it, nor do I have any idea who John Pilger is".

Establishment to the end...

[Sbrinz]

Dear Lord Ken, no doubt you have been reading that the lazy MP leader Jeremy Corbyn has been un-friended by over 80% of his colleagues and will soon be asked to resign. Coupled with the general "protest voting", I think the Referendum was not a true measure of the nation's beliefs.

Many constitutional experts are now crawling out of their libraries and pointing out that the referendum means nothing, as there was no statement on how an exit was to be achieved, and anyway, turning over the 1972 act of Parliament requires a new act of Parliament. This act must also be passed by the House of Lords, who are enormously in favour of remaining in Europe.

It's a dead duck, and no more houses will need to be upgraded.

David Cameron has already said he won't be standing as a candidate at the next general election, and now that he steps down 3 years earlier I am sure he won't be crying for too long.

The next choice of Prime Minister will be interesting, whether the Conservative MPs choose a "Remainer" or a "Leaver" but hey, don't worry, that's just another British "Democratic" process we all love to hang on to, what can possibly go wrong?

[Castro]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	If parliament does ignore the referendum - which as we know they are perfectly entitled to do - then they'll also have to deal with a majority of the voting public (52% of a 72% turnout).

Lets meet half way, and have another referendum vote

Seriously, I am not sure if its just anecdotal but I am hearing a lot of Bregret now that people realise that 'Vote leave' will pretty much leave us where we are now (freedom of movement, continued payments into EU infrastructure etc..) but with no ability to reform the EU, so basically the same Fax democracy Norway has which I am sure nobody would have voted for.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Castro
	Lets meet half way, and have another referendum vote Seriously, I am not sure if its just anecdotal but I am hearing a lot of Bregret now that people realise that 'Vote leave' will pretty much leave us where we are now (freedom of movement, continued payments into EU infrastructure etc..) but with no ability to reform the EU, so basically the same Fax democracy Norway has which I am sure nobody would have voted for.

How can you say with no ability to reform the EU, when the EU now realises it needs reform? Hollande has openly said so, premier MEP's have said so. Other countries are calling for referendums, and the EU is basically petrified of the consequences.

If the Brexit is not a monumental catalyst for reform, then nothing ever will be. There have been many articles over the last few days: http://time.com/4383368/european-union-brexit-reform/ and also http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/e...deep-EU-reform

And accepting free movement does not equal the "same control as the EU had before", it refers to specific areas like free movement etc. There are lots of other areas of politics and law that the EU will no longer have influence over once we leave.

[porsch1909]

	Quote:	Castro
	Lets meet half way, and have another referendum vote Seriously, I am not sure if its just anecdotal but I am hearing a lot of Bregret now that people realise that 'Vote leave' will pretty much leave us where we are now (freedom of movement, continued payments into EU infrastructure etc..) but with no ability to reform the EU, so basically the same Fax democracy Norway has which I am sure nobody would have voted for.

Indeed. Perhaps the referendum should have read

Remain

Remain, with no seat at the table

[Uncle Max]

	Quote:
	= "I never read it, nor do I have any idea who John Pilger is". Establishment to the end...

Sorry, I've no idea. Please enlighten us. Only I don't like spittle on my Gipfeli.

[Sbrinz]

	Quote:
	= "I never read it, nor do I have any idea who John Pilger is". Establishment to the end...

Maybe you should read it, he derides the "establishment"

The most effective propagandists of the "European ideal" have not been the far right, but an insufferably patrician class for whom metropolitan London is the United Kingdom. Its leading members see themselves as liberal, enlightened, cultivated tribunes of the 21st century zeitgeist, even "cool". What they really are is a bourgeoisie with insatiable consumerist tastes and ancient instincts of their own superiority. In their house paper, the Guardian, they have gloated, day after day, at those who would even consider the EU profoundly undemocratic, a source of social injustice and a virulent extremism known as "neoliberalism".

John Pilger is a highly respected world reporter, telling the other sides of the stories published in the right wing press.