The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[JackieH]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Indeed, but generally speaking some/many of the "Leavers" voted for UK to get back their independence from EU. And they started this "work" back in the '90s, FMOP was heavily weaponised because it was more effective to use immigration as an argument against EU. You know the old recipe, just find some common enemies and voila, we'll all gather around some party/idea/ideology. But seriously, the pro-"Suveranists" were only opportunists using everything they could to reach a goal they had had for a very long time. In this regard UK is quite unique among (ex-)EU members and perhaps it's better they parted ways with EU..I don't know.

Opportunists of the highest order is the point here. There rest is another story. So far, a disaster all round. Not even Ress-Mogg who was appointed as Minister to find any Brexit Opportunities, was able to find a single one.

[ShirleyNot]

	Quote:	JackieH
	But the principle of voting to take away rights from the vast majority to go and work, live, love in the EU, knowing that you could by-pass consequences, is utterly hypocritical.

How do you know it was "the principle of voting"?

I just think it's unfair to make such a massive unstable assumption that dual-national people entirely based their vote on scuppering other peoples chances of moving to the EU. It would be safer to assume it a consequence, not a motivation.

I know dual-national people who thought voting Leave would genuinely make the country better, not sure they could articulate the hows and the whys then or even now, but their motivation was certainly not to prevent people from living abroad.

[JackieH]

I am not saying it was their motivation, I am saying that they knew, that this was going to be a direct consequence. As said, the only thing that was crystal clear re Brexit, that FMOP would go.

I am constantly helping people applying for CH citizenship, as a referee, helping with forms, prepare for interview, etc. I am a dual citizen, my OP is a triple one. As such, I would never dream of voting to stop others from having the same rights.

Or if I did, because other factors were more important, than at least I would not be hypocritical enough to avail myself of what I have denied others.

[ShirleyNot]

	Quote:	JackieH
	I am not saying it was their motivation, I am saying that they knew, that this was going to be a direct consequence. As said, the only thing that was crystal clear re Brexit, that FMOP would go.

Was it? At the time of the referendum? As far as I recall, nothing was certain about Brexit in the run-up to the vote. Had a soft Brexit passed, a relationship with the EU would still be in existence.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	marton
	Bank of England ups interest rate by 0.75%, £ fell vs CHF - I suppose a higher increase was expected?

The problem is the R-word, recession. That doesn't bode well for the continent and the US either.

[bowlie]

	Quote:	ShirleyNot
	Was it? At the time of the referendum? As far as I recall, nothing was certain about Brexit in the run-up to the vote. Had a soft Brexit passed, a relationship with the EU would still be in existence.

As I recall there were quite a few porky-pies about the benefits. The Bus; the easist trade deal in human history; there will be no forms, no checks, no barriers of any kind [between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK]; The Union Will Be Stronger If We Leave; Within minutes of a vote for Brexit the CEO’s of Mercedes, BMW, VW and Audi will be knocking down Chancellor Merkel’s door demanding that there be no barriers to German access to the British market”; etc.

But when anyone suggested there might be drawbacks, an overpowering chorus of “Project Fear, Project Fear, Project Fear” drowned them out. Even in this thread!

The reason why nothing was certain was because their wasn’t a balanced debate and because the media was guilty of trying to make the News, rather than just report it. Let’s not forget that the bendy-banana-ban came from Boris’ mouth when he was a journalist.

[Flakk]

	Quote:	ipoddle
	I heard firsthand yesterday about one of the idiotic consequences of Brexit. Our company manufactures' high end' medical diagnostic equipment. PreBrexit when a model past regulatory requirements it was for sale across the EU including the UK. Now each model has to be submitted to the UK authorities for a separate check, which is pretty much the same one that is applied in Europe. The only result is the machine becomes available in the UK later and at higher cost. Nobody benefits, patients suffer.

I’d be interested to hear how your company is coping with this. I read the other day that the UK won’t have its testing facilities ready until 2024.

[Flakk]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	The problem is the R-word, recession. That doesn't bode well for the continent and the US either.

Also that the BofE has hinted that there won’t be much more by way of increases. The markets clearly believe 3% isn’t enough.

[JackieH]

No idea how many on EF are British. Or how long they have been out of UK. It seems however that some have been away for a very long time, and probably do not have very close ties or interests there, and probably do not watch UK TV or read UK newsapers.

Did any of you watch Question Time last night (and last few weeks too). The audience is chosen to represent voting in last election- so Tory supporters are chosen in larger numbers (this is made clear at the beginning of each programme).

Last night, it was so clear that the tide has turned. A Tory weighed audience that burst into loud clapping when a woman asked if it is time to reconsider Brexit, now we all know just how damaging it is. Just amazing.

Over 60% of UK people now say Brexit was a huge mistake. Most of the rest are 'don't knows'. A tiny proportion of people now have not changed their mind. And for very clear and obvious reasons- Brexit is causing huge damage and massive pain to this amazing country. Yes, most EU countries and many others are going through a tough time currently- but Brexit is clearly making it so much worse for the UK, in 100s of ways.

[Biro]

	Quote:	JackieH
	No idea how many on EF are British. Or how long they have been out of UK. It seems however that some have been away for a very long time, and probably do not have very close ties or interests here, and probably do not watch UK TV or read UK newsapers. Did any of you watch Question Time last night (and last few weeks too). The audience is chosen to represent voting in last election- so Tory supporters are chosen in larger numbers (this is made clear at the beginning of each programme). Last night, it was so clear that the tide has turned. A Tory weighed audience that burst into loud clapping when a woman asked if it is time to reconsider Brexit, now we all know just how damaging it is. Just amazing. Over 60% of UK people now say Brexit was a huge mistake. Most of the rest are 'don't knows'. A tiny proportion of people now have not changed their mind. And for very clear and obvious reasons- Brexit is causing huge damage and massive pain to this amazing country. Yes, most EU countries and many others are going through a tough time currently- but Brexit is clearly making it so much worse for the UK, in 100s of ways.

Move on Jackie, your continued bleating will change nothing THERE IS NO WAY BACK.


The EU doesn't want the disruption of the UK, they spoil what's left of the Franco-German axis, the UK doesn't want the EU because they feel superior.


It's happened and you have to learn to live with it and make the best out of it and continuous whining is no way forward.


It is typical UK, living in the past, crying over spilled milk; LOOK FORWARDS it's not all black in front of you dearie

[JackieH]

Go on being rude and shouting- be my guest.

Brexit has happened, but Starmer, or even better, a coalition with Lib Dems and Greens- could go back to the EU and re-negotiate some form of Customs Union and Single Market access. That is entirely possible. It would have to include FMOP, but most now realise that this would be a good thing, as the UK is so short of staff in agriculture, care sector, NHS, Hôtels and catering, and so much more. It would also mostly solve the issue with NI. Why would you wish to deny that some solutions cannot be found?

A friend of mine wrote this the other day, in the answer to the question. What will it take for Brexiters to admit that they were wrong?

''They won't. They will, however, eventually either die or become the weirdos in the corner of the pub (if there are any left) as history tells our decedent's how and why the wealth of our country was destroyed.

There will still be those around who think that Trump had the election stolen from him, that mass shootings and bombings were conspiracies set up to manipulate public opinion and played out by "crisis actors", that secret and unauthorised networks of power stop governments from pursuing their own goals and that Brexit was really a success.''

Polls show clearly that the vast majority regret Brexit. Audiences for TV shows which are biased to represent more Cons views, clearly show that to be the case too. Demographics alone have tipped the balance t'other way.

Happy to buy you a drink, when you are in the corner, before its too late.

[roegner]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Go on being rude and shouting- be my guest. Brexit has happened, but Starmer, or even better, a coalition with Lib Dems and Greens- could go back to the EU and re-negotiate some form of Customs Union and Single Market access. That is entirely possible. It would have to include FMOP, but most now realise that this would be a good thing, as the UK is so short of staff in agriculture, care sector, NHS, Hôtels and catering, and so much more. It would also mostly solve the issue with NI. Why would you wish to deny that some solutions cannot be found? A friend of mine wrote this the other day, in the answer to the question. What will it take for Brexiters to admit that they were wrong? ''They won't. They will, however, eventually either die or become the weirdos in the corner of the pub (if there are any left) as history tells our decedent's how and why the wealth of our country was destroyed. There will still be those around who think that Trump had the election stolen from him, that mass shootings and bombings were conspiracies set up to manipulate public opinion and played out by "crisis actors", that secret and unauthorised networks of power stop governments from pursuing their own goals and that Brexit was really a success.'' Polls show clearly that the vast majority regret Brexit. Audiences for TV shows which are biased to represent more Cons views, clearly show that to be the case too. Demographics alone have tipped the balance t'other way. Happy to buy you a drink, when you are in the corner, before its too late.

Do you really think that after the UK kicked the toys out of the pram the EU is interested?

[JackieH]

That is a difficult question. But it is in the interest of all to find solutions, for the EU too.

A new PM and Governement, could go back and try to renegotiate some aspects- saying truly and sincerely that they were not in any way part of this mess. And not involved in signing really bad deals with fingers crossed behind their back, and lying to all about it.

Going back in? No, not at this stage, for sure. Even if there was a new Referendum, which would show clearly that people have changed their mind.
But another form of Deal with FMOP and access to Single Market in some form or other. Yes, totally feasible. And in the interest of all.

If saying this is 'bleating and whining' and makes me a prize ninny- then what can I say. Better than being a Trumpian dinosaur in the corner of the pub, methinks.

[Biro]

	Quote:	JackieH
	That is a difficult question. But it is in the interest of all to find solutions, for the EU too. A new PM and Governement, could go back and try to renegotiate some aspects- saying truly and sincerely that they were not in any way part of this mess. And not involved in signing really bad deals with fingers crossed behind their back, and lying to all about it. Going back in? No, not at this stage, for sure. Even if there was a new Referendum, which would show clearly that people have changed their mind. But another form of Deal with FMOP and access to Single Market in some form or other. Yes, totally feasible. And in the interest of all. If saying this is 'bleating and whining' and makes me a prize ninny- then what can I say. Better than being a Trumpian dinosaur in the corner of the pub, methinks.

The EU will not negotiate, they don't need to too and they have shown very clearly they will not negotiate.


The UK would have to submit to a total EU rule with no say in making these rules or any possibility to change anything, including "membership" and there is absolutely no way in hell that the UK would accept this, it would be far to demeaning to start with.


A vasel state is that what you advise ?



Or if you prefer a tom cat with no balls


Jackie, there is NO WAY BACK, like it or not

[JackieH]

No vasel state, that is clear.

The alternative of not trying to negotiate some kind of return to Single Market, in one form or other- is a never ending dowhill infernal spiral. Not a prospect I'd wish for my adult children (in their late 40s) and teenage grandchildren. Or the country I loved and gave my all to, all my adult life. I never gave up on it!

Waiting for 30+ years, à la Rees Mogg- NO thank you. At 101 I don't think I will care. I imagine too that you are not dependent on your salary in Sterling either?

[bowlie]

	Quote:	roegner
	Do you really think that after the UK kicked the toys out of the pram the EU is interested?

Well I do. Of course when you refer to the EU you could be referring to the Commission, the Parliament or the Council (i.e Member States)

I think some member states would welcome the UK back into the EU. The Benelux countries, Denmark and Sweden, Baltic States, Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Malta and a few others.

Germany, Spain and Portugal would be more hesitant but likely could be convinced that it was in their interests as well.

France would be a challenge, but they probably could be convinced to go along (Crier et donner des coups de pied).

The Commission’s mandate is to support the European Union and many would see the benefits, as a whole, to EU.

Parliament would be more difficult, but if the Member States were in favour would likely come along, also screaming and kicking.

I don’t see the EU as being an insurmountable problem. That lies with the UK Government and opposition.

[JackieH]

Thank you Bowlie, for some hope. Going back may not be possible, but a different Brexit, the sort we were promised by some during the Campaign- may well be possible. Remember people like Hannan saying clearly during the campaign that NO-ONE WAS EVEN THINKING about leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union.

In the meantime, we have to listen to this kind of thing, again and again. It is painful to listen to, cringe-making! JOB does not even attempt to counter any more- it is just such ridiculous and utter nonsense by hopeless whining, bleating ninnies.

https://fb.watch/gB5avmT5l0/

[bowlie]

If I recall correctly the banana-banner was quoted as saying that NI had the best of both worlds being in the single market and the UK at the same time.

Well, duh!

Why wouldn’t this work for England, Wales and Scotland as well.

[grumpygrapefruit]

	Quote:	Biro
	The EU will not negotiate, they don't need to too and they have shown very clearly they will not negotiate. The UK would have to submit to a total EU rule with no say in making these rules or any possibility to change anything, including "membership" and there is absolutely no way in hell that the UK would accept this, it would be far to demeaning to start with. A vasel state is that what you advise ? Or if you prefer a tom cat with no balls Jackie, there is NO WAY BACK, like it or not

But they have been negotiating. They have been trying to find a way out of the NI border mess, it's the UK govt that have been digging their heels in.

True, I don't believe the EU will easily or happily accept the UK back in fully, but I'm sure they would be happy to negotiate a customs treaty. But then again, the UK govt has consistently said that they don't want that.

[marton]

	Quote:	Biro
	The EU will not negotiate, they don't need to too and they have shown very clearly they will not negotiate. The UK would have to submit to a total EU rule with no say in making these rules or any possibility to change anything, including "membership" and there is absolutely no way in hell that the UK would accept this, it would be far to demeaning to start with. A vasel state is that what you advise ? Or if you prefer a tom cat with no balls Jackie, there is NO WAY BACK, like it or not

Actually, the EU did negotiate

The EU cracked the Withdrawal Agreement open which they had claimed was not negotiable, and heavily rewrote the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland

EU officials and diplomats have long insisted the bloc's single market must be protected with strong external border checks on goods and food safety. And they argued that for the sake of guaranteeing such "gate-keeping" controls, those checks could never be outsourced to a third country. However, it is U.K. authorities who will check goods going from British ports to Northern Ireland and from thereon potentially into the EU single market.

The automatic right of EU citizens to live in Britain was ended.

The EU wanted to roll over the current system of mutual access to fishing waters after Brexit but that was changed.

The EU had wanted a specific sum to be agreed for Britain to pay the bloc to cover its outstanding obligations, but in the end the sides agreed on a joint methodology to calculate that later.