Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31041  
Old 02.02.2023, 22:22
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,221 Times in 598 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I don‘t really believe that you‘ve grasped the reason behind Tom1234s post
Why don't you explain it to me then? Was he being satirical?
  #31042  
Old 02.02.2023, 22:36
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,221 Times in 598 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
But it does more (however little) than moaning which achieves nothing.
No. It potentially wastes resources and distracts from solutions that can actually achieve something. That can sometimes be worse than 'just moaning'.
  #31043  
Old 02.02.2023, 22:37
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich City
Posts: 7,835
Groaned at 609 Times in 359 Posts
Thanked 9,750 Times in 4,529 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Why don't you explain it to me then? Was he being satirical?
No. It‘s about being factual.
  #31044  
Old 02.02.2023, 23:31
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt. Zh
Posts: 12,826
Groaned at 519 Times in 430 Posts
Thanked 20,434 Times in 10,354 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
No. It potentially wastes resources and distracts from solutions that can actually achieve something. That can sometimes be worse than 'just moaning'.
How does buying stuff produced in your home country waste resources? Since it has already reached another market, it's here, on some shelves in the supermarket. UK has lost the advantage of attracting cheap labour so their products won't be as competitive as the ones of Germany or Italy for instance. But in principle it's not a bad thing if a country's emigrants buy things made "back home"...oder? However I agree it's not much..
This topic made me smile because we like cheddar cheese and buy quite often, not for the same reasons obviously..
  #31045  
Old 03.02.2023, 07:45
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,221 Times in 598 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
How does buying stuff produced in your home country waste resources?
It potentially wastes one basic resource. Good will.

A person is asked to do something for a good cause; donate money, buy a product, boycott a product, or otherwise behave outside of their normal pattern of behaviour. Their reward is that this makes them feel good about themselves, allows them to virtue signal their good deed.

Along comes someone else who tries to get them to do something something else for that cause. All other things being equal the response will be smaller as many others will feel they had done their bit for that cause. That's why there is such a frenetic effort to jump people on the street to sign up for donations, because once they've signed up to donating to one or two, they begin to refuse to sign up to any more - they've done their 'duty', after all.

Good will is, like every thing else, a finite resource and this means if you want people to support your cause you want them to do so in a way that will have the greatest impact. And all this is before one considers that the return on a campaign to get expats to buy more products from the home country could cost more that the tax revenue generated, money that could have been better employed with subsidies, tax breaks or even a marketing campaign for the general foreign market.

Indeed, given the fact that the UK is overwhelmingly a service-based economy, how much benefit would there be to promoting manufactured exports? Would it not benefit the UK more if it focused on increasing the export of services, not goods?

The problem, with Brexit, is that it has been largely directed though a series soundbites offering simple solutions for often complex, nuanced, problems. After all, getting lots of new trade deals will be easy - they'll be clambering at the door - or the UK imports more to the EU than visa versa, so there's no way the EU won't want that to continue, or with all that money saved it'll go and make the NHS so much better. All of those were sold as slam dunk solutions too.

Until they didn't. And all that Tom is suggesting is another potentially ill-considered Hail Mary in a now long list of Hail Marys.
This user would like to thank Aeneas for this useful post:
  #31046  
Old 03.02.2023, 09:18
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 2,364
Groaned at 1,235 Times in 703 Posts
Thanked 6,141 Times in 2,780 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
An economy that has not been a consistent net exporter for decades can't suddenly attribute it's problems to lack of trade deals for a start... No doubt at the micro level certain firms are more impacted than others, but at a macro level it is too small to have such a big impact. But no more than the EU before it BREXIT is now the excuse for not delivering by industry.
Finally see the economic argument for Brexit?

Or rather, explains a lot why Brexit thus far has been an economic non-event.
  #31047  
Old 03.02.2023, 09:45
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 16,823
Groaned at 367 Times in 316 Posts
Thanked 26,856 Times in 10,971 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Or rather, explains a lot why Brexit thus far has been an economic non-event.
Oh definitely a non-event.

Brexit Costs UK £100 Billion a Year in Lost Output.
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #31048  
Old 03.02.2023, 09:46
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 19,400
Groaned at 852 Times in 665 Posts
Thanked 29,945 Times in 12,175 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Indeed, given the fact that the UK is overwhelmingly a service-based economy, how much benefit would there be to promoting manufactured exports? Would it not benefit the UK more if it focused on increasing the export of services, not goods?
Why would it not be feasible to increase both export of goods as well as services?

Apart from financial, much of the service revenue is exporting IP, particularly chip design and solutions. There was talk on the radio this morning about manufacturing chips too (to remove reliance on Taiwan but there would be other benefits).

The US high-tech industry has recently has been returning much manufacturing back from Asia to home shores providing jobs and export revenue.
The following 2 users would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #31049  
Old 03.02.2023, 09:52
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 2,364
Groaned at 1,235 Times in 703 Posts
Thanked 6,141 Times in 2,780 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

4% larger?!

Point to a EU country, or any western country that has seen that much extra growth in the last 3 years! How does this stuff even get printed

Funny how none of these inverted puff pieces on the economic impact of Brexit on the third anniversary don't mention how the UK locked down harder and for longer than almost all other developed nations too.
  #31050  
Old 03.02.2023, 09:59
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Geneva
Posts: 2,129
Groaned at 272 Times in 180 Posts
Thanked 2,619 Times in 1,256 Posts
Biro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Why would it not be feasible to increase both export of goods as well as services?

Apart from financial, much of the service revenue is exporting IP, particularly chip design and solutions. There was talk on the radio this morning about manufacturing chips too (to remove reliance on Taiwan but there would be other benefits).

The US high-tech industry has recently has been returning much manufacturing back from Asia to home shores providing jobs and export revenue.



There is very little serviceable infrastructure left to increase exports of goods !


Services, there are a lot of people doing the same but with a smile and able to communicate in several different languages.
  #31051  
Old 03.02.2023, 10:31
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,221 Times in 598 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Why would it not be feasible to increase both export of goods as well as services?
Firstly, I was responding to what you suggested where you never mentioned services.

Secondly, the whooshing sound you may be hearing is the point of my last post going over your head. If we all had infinite resources, then absolutely, in your scenario we could ask expats to support both UK goods and services. But what if we can only get them to stretch to one? Did you not understand this point or are you simply ignoring it?
Quote:
Apart from financial, much of the service revenue is exporting IP, particularly chip design and solutions. There was talk on the radio this morning about manufacturing chips too (to remove reliance on Taiwan but there would be other benefits).
Do you gave even the vaguest notion of how much investment and time it takes to develop an advanced chip foundry? Decades and tens of billions. So what's going to keep the UK afloat while that's brewing? Remittances?
Quote:
The US high-tech industry has recently has been returning much manufacturing back from Asia to home shores providing jobs and export revenue.
Do you have hard facts on what they've brought back? I don't mean anecdotal feel-good stories, I mean bottom line national statistics.

The US is presently attempting to return manufacturing back from Asia, much as it began to lower hydrocarbon dependence on the Middle-East twenty years ago, which they only achieved relatively recently.

You would think that trying to solve the situation using cavalier and ill thought out strategies to this point would have brought home the fact that the cavalier and ill thought approach didn't work very well, but seemingly not.
Quote:
View Post
Funny how none of these inverted puff pieces on the economic impact of Brexit on the third anniversary don't mention how the UK locked down harder and for longer than almost all other developed nations too.
The UK locked down harder and for longer than almost all other developed nations? Do you have a source for this claim?
  #31052  
Old 03.02.2023, 10:47
Ato Ato is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: ZH
Posts: 2,346
Groaned at 47 Times in 41 Posts
Thanked 4,804 Times in 1,898 Posts
Ato has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post

Apart from financial, much of the service revenue is exporting IP, particularly chip design and solutions. There was talk on the radio this morning about manufacturing chips too (to remove reliance on Taiwan but there would be other benefits).
I think The UK should adapt to the international chip market. I mean salt and vinegar are mostly accepted at this point, but prawn cocktail is still a step too far for most of the European Market. You would have thought that cheese and onion would be a runaway success, but in come the Taiwanese with their exotic flavours.

Last edited by Ato; 03.02.2023 at 10:57. Reason: There ought be something of selling all the chips on peoples shoulders.
  #31053  
Old 03.02.2023, 10:52
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 19,400
Groaned at 852 Times in 665 Posts
Thanked 29,945 Times in 12,175 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post

Secondly, the whooshing sound you may be hearing is the point of my last post going over your head. If we all had infinite resources, then absolutely, in your scenario we could ask expats to support both UK goods and services. But what if we can only get them to stretch to one? Did you not understand this point or are you simply ignoring it?
I think that whoosing sound is actually a plane trying to reach high enough altitude to get over your big head.

I was being facetious about asking Jackie to buy more cheddar, OK?

Regarding the U.S, reshoring of manufacturing is a thing. As for semiconductor foundries - a massive one is currently being built in Arizona.
  #31054  
Old 03.02.2023, 11:20
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 6,248
Groaned at 410 Times in 294 Posts
Thanked 10,364 Times in 4,508 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
UK has lost the advantage of attracting cheap labour so their products won't be as competitive as the ones of Germany or Italy for instance.
I think you have indirectly identified the true problem of the UK - it’s a low value added economy and while cheap labour has been a distinct advantage for individual companies that government policy has disadvantaged the country as a whole. You can’t compete against third countries in the market with a European cost base.

If you look at the consistent net exporters in Europe - Germany, Switzerland, Ireland and so on, the thing they all have in common is that they are producing high value added products. Stuff you are willing to pay for because of its quality or you just can’t do without it.

And at the end of the day that comes down to government policy. For me the UK and Ireland are very much the same, clammed out economics joining the EEC in 1973, same language, legal system, similar education system and so on. And yet today Ireland’s GDP per capita is about $83k in-line with Switzerland while the UK comes in at around $42k. I believe the difference comes down to economic policy and the interest groups that are in a position to influence it.
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
The following 2 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #31055  
Old 03.02.2023, 11:20
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,845
Groaned at 798 Times in 676 Posts
Thanked 25,710 Times in 13,440 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I think that whoosing sound is actually a plane trying to reach high enough altitude to get over your big head.

I was being facetious about asking Jackie to buy more cheddar, OK?

Regarding the U.S, reshoring of manufacturing is a thing. As for semiconductor foundries - a massive one is currently being built in Arizona.
In your link, they are counting "foreign direct investment (FDI) job announcements" as reshoring which is a bit of a stretch, take that out and they are claiming reshoring of 100,000 jobs per year which is OK but compared with the 166 Million employed in the US it is well under 1%. Compare this with the 300,000 US jobs outsourced every year.
  #31056  
Old 03.02.2023, 11:30
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 2,364
Groaned at 1,235 Times in 703 Posts
Thanked 6,141 Times in 2,780 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
And at the end of the day that comes down to government policy. For me the UK and Ireland are very much the same, clammed out economics joining the EEC in 1973, same language, legal system, similar education system and so on. And yet today Ireland’s GDP per capita is about $83k in-line with Switzerland while the UK comes in at around $42k. I believe the difference comes down to economic policy and the interest groups that are in a position to influence it.
What a great country Ireland is, booming GDP that has had zero effect on living standards. What's going wrong, Jim?

  #31057  
Old 03.02.2023, 11:36
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 19,400
Groaned at 852 Times in 665 Posts
Thanked 29,945 Times in 12,175 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
In your link, they are counting "foreign direct investment (FDI) job announcements" as reshoring which is a bit of a stretch, take that out and they are claiming reshoring of 100,000 jobs per year which is OK but compared with the 166 Million employed in the US it is well under 1%. Compare this with the 300,000 US jobs outsourced every year.
I haven't got the time to find decent stats. The rest is anecdotal from personal experience.

Most investment in industry seems to be with foreign investment - not just in the U.S. The chip foundry in Arizona is with Taiwanese money but worth 40 billion.
  #31058  
Old 03.02.2023, 11:40
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 19,400
Groaned at 852 Times in 665 Posts
Thanked 29,945 Times in 12,175 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
If you look at the consistent net exporters in Europe - Germany, Switzerland, Ireland and so on, the thing they all have in common is that they are producing high value added products. Stuff you are willing to pay for because of its quality or you just can’t do without it.
The U.K. does a lot of that. But it's classed as a service even though it's practically more linked to hi-tech manufacturing being IP and technical expertise.
  #31059  
Old 03.02.2023, 12:32
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt. Zh
Posts: 12,826
Groaned at 519 Times in 430 Posts
Thanked 20,434 Times in 10,354 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
And yet today Ireland’s GDP per capita is about $83k in-line with Switzerland while the UK comes in at around $42k. I believe the difference comes down to economic policy and the interest groups that are in a position to influence it.
Yes, Ireland seems to have adopted very good economic policies in the past 20 years or so. Thinking of European Union it can work in your favour if you have good politicians who would fight tooth and nail for their country's interests in Bruxelles...not all countries have those people though. In some countries like mine there's even a counter-selection in politics, inheritance from communism. The interest of EU would be that each country should be given the chance to develop a few competitive even niche sectors so we'll be all doing better than alone or than third countries and the disparities between countries wouldn't be so big. Especially when there is huge natural and human potential but ended up serving the needs and interests of other countries.
  #31060  
Old 03.02.2023, 12:37
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 6,326
Groaned at 124 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 9,393 Times in 4,432 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Indeed, given the fact that the UK is overwhelmingly a service-based economy, how much benefit would there be to promoting manufactured exports? Would it not benefit the UK more if it focused on increasing the export of services, not goods?
So, why people went mad when "EU" suspended use of AstraZeneca vaccine? Forget the export of goods, like a vaccine, and focus on services, right?

Also, let the French sell submarines to Australia and focus on services. Exporting goods is sooooo 20th century.
Closed Thread

Tags
europe




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 18 (0 members and 18 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Latest Referendum, what will be consequences for EU (C permit and B permit) holders? expat2014 Permits/visas/government 3 11.02.2014 08:59
Importing vehicles and the VAT consequences in Switzerland from France BEFO Finance/banking/taxation 6 07.08.2013 15:11
The (Available in CH) Dog Food Review Thread meloncollie Pet corner 44 08.05.2012 20:15
Common-law marriage and consequences in CH Mishto Family matters/health 9 01.10.2011 22:03
Something for the Brits: M&S in CH mark Daily life 11 15.11.2007 12:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0