The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[moggy]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	But we've been told a thousand times that Londoners voted stay.

Notably the Borough of Lambeth (Brixton is there) was quoted by a newspaper the other day for the high Remain votes.

It has a very high Multi-Race content.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	smackerjack
	What is the sad part is how much the remainers and brexiters between friends and families has caused so much unpleasantness. I am in the UK and went to a meal last weekend with 10 other people - they were equally divided and the feelings were so strong that to be honest the evening was ruined and some people who have been friends were many years came really close to having a major fallout.

Yeah, well that's why no one with any sense discusses such sensitive and contentious politics at the dinner table.

[TobiasM]

I know I ducked out of the thread, but this was amusing Benjamin Timothy Blaine has tried to sum up the post-Brexit Britain and it’s well worth a read:

So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

Clear?

Especially if you are a woman, of course:

https://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w

- it is very difficult to avoid as people feel real worry, disappointment, fears, dismay. If not at the dinner table, it is around coffee, at work, in the park- at home with families- on FB and on Skype, on the phone- everywhere. Anyone who just doesn't care- one way or another- needs their head examined, truly.

I don't mind people having totally different opinions to mine half as much than people who do not have any. Truly.

And yes, our family, both direct and indirect- have been affected by the run up and post referendum- in such a way which may well be irreperable. Sad- tragic even.

[idefix]

	Quote:
	Especially if you are a woman, of course: https://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w - it is very difficult to avoid as people feel real worry, disappointment, fears, dismay. If not at the dinner table, it is around coffee, at work, in the park- at home with families- on FB and on Skype, on the phone- everywhere. Anyone who just doesn't care- one way or another- needs their head examined, truly. I don't mind people having totally different opinions to mine half as much than people who do not have any. Truly. And yes, our family, both direct and indirect- have been affected by the run up and post referendum- in such a way which may well be irreperable. Sad- tragic even.

[moggy]

a quote from a friend and I agree, as appreciated a laugh

This is completely wrong on several levels and I am almost ashamed to say that it made me laugh my flipping head off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a6HNXtdvVQ

[curley]

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	Curley, most just keep making the same statement. This is not unknown in Switzerland. Many are making wholly incorrect assertions about their own political system. This is also not unknown in Switzerland. Many haven't understood that while what you read on facebook may be appealing to them and have quotes, photos, and urls which support their own argument, facebook is no substitute for fact checking (I'm surprised that nobody has posted the picture of Farage as a punk in the '80s). The Swiss are not immune to straw manning the opposing view. Many feel that for democracy to succeed that the best course of action is to (temporarily) rescind democracy or the rule of law. I don't think I've ever heard a Swiss express this sentiment. The British are pissed off. I don't think the Swiss have ever experienced this kind of thing, and even if they were to, it probably wouldn't be followed on the word stage the way Brexit has been.

I don't know what you're trying to tell me with this. It is totally unknown in Switzerland that a vote is not binding to our governement and this is not an incorrect assertion.

And I'm not on facebook btw., I don't need to know who showers when

[smackerjack]

	Quote:	Chuff
	Yeah, well that's why no one with any sense discusses such sensitive and contentious politics at the dinner table.

In the UK it does not matter where you go - that is all that anyone talks about and that dinner was only the day after!!

[Chuff]

Our commonwealth cousins stepping in... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...r-post-brexit/

	Quote:	smackerjack
	In the UK it does not matter where you go - that is all that anyone talks about and that dinner was only the day after!!

I announced it as specifically banned it from our family chat groups, and it seems to have done the job at maintaining peace. So far.

	Quote:	Chuff
	Our commonwealth cousins stepping in... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...r-post-brexit/

It's behind a paywall. Any chance of a quick summary?

[curley]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	they already have started. following usual form, EU has responded to an EU crisis, but exploiting it to push for more EU. this was leaked by the Polish media but I'm going to give the ZH link because of extra sensationalism http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...an-super-state

	Quote:	jacek
	There's a good chance to have another referendum/debate on "To trigger or not to trigger - that's the question" regarding the Article 50. It will be worthless without another poll. http://www.politico.eu/article/david...rticle-50-now/ Maybe the whole campaign was just a well masterminded provocation to introduce the changes into already badly flawed EU system. It needs radical changes for sure. At least things won't be the same anymore and it's about the time to revise the whole EU project. If that's what it takes to make those Brussel's bureaucrats do something serious about it, so be it. Well done lads!

An other referendum in GB? What on earth for if it's not legally binding?
Well, according to the post of Phil MCR when Brussel's bureaucrats do something serious it only gets worse.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:
	It's behind a paywall. Any chance of a quick summary?

Look at the title of the link, the Kiwis are sending a crack negotiating team.

[Chuff]

	Quote:
	It's behind a paywall. Any chance of a quick summary?

It's not a paywall, I don't have a subscription and can view it fine.

Pasted:

	Quote:
	New Zealand offers UK its top trade negotiators for post-Brexit deals John Key, New Zealand's Prime Minister CREDIT: PHIL WALTER/GETTY IMAGES 29 JUNE 2016 • 4:22PM New Zealand has offered its top trade negotiators to the United Kingdom, relieving the British civil service as it prepares for the strain of seeking new deals with countries across the globe. The Telegraph understands that the Commonwealth country has made an offer to loan staff to the UK in a diplomatic cable sent to the British civil service, which has few trade negotiators of its own. Wellington’s olive branch came alongside an offer to discuss a trade agreement with the UK, which would help Britain get out of the starting blocks and begin replacing the trade access lost as a result of the Brexit vote. The UK would need massive numbers of trade negotiators Experts say that drafting negotiators will be crucial for forging new agreements between the UK and Brussels, as well as with more than 50 other markets with which EU members currently enjoy trade agreements. Lord Price, the minister for trade and investment, has said that the Government has around 40 trade negotiators, compared with the 550 employed by the EU. Whitehall has outsourced trade powers to Brussels for 43 years, meaning that the number of negotiators employed by Government has dwindled. These experts require years of experience to become proficient, time that the UK would not have if formal notification of the country’s intention to leave the EU was issued soon. Sajid Javid, the Business secretary, said that the UK would increase the number of negotiators on staff CREDIT: DOMINIC LIPINSKI/PA Allie Renison, head of trade policy at the Institute of Directors, said that the civil service would need to "massively scale up" in order to negotiate new trade deals. Ms Renison said that drafting in help from New Zealand could help, although there remained a risk that negotiators would lack familiarity with the UK's regulatory system. Donald Trump, the real estate mogul running for the US Presidency, has famously said that he believes seconding people from the world of business to run trade negotiations would result in better deals. However, Ms Renison pointed out, modern trade deals are written in "very, very technical language, that would not make sense to any business person". Sajid Javid, the secretary of state for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, said on Tuesday that Whitehall would increase the number of negotiators it had available over time. He said: "That process has already begun, and I'm very confident that we can get the right resources in place so we can take advantage of those opportunities that have been created." New Zealand itself has been successful in striking deals with partners around the world. The country enjoys eight free-trade agreements, including deals with China and Australia. It has also concluded talks with the United States, Canada and much of the Gulf, although these agreements are not yet in force. John Key, New Zealand’s Prime Minister, has said that the country will work with Australia in arranging new ties with the UK as it withdraws from the EU. “Where it makes sense we [New Zealand and Australia] will co-operate together,” he said. Mr Key's Australian counterpart, Malcolm Turnbull, said that "opportunities and challenges" arose from the UK's decision to split with the EU. He said: "There are some big issues in terms of the access of Australians and New Zealanders to Europe and indeed to the UK." Mr Javid said this week that the UK was “open for business”, and had already received offers to begin negotiation immediately with Australia and South Korea. Canada, India and Mexico are also understood to have contacted the Government with a view to undertaking post-Brexit talks. The Conservative minister also announced that he and Lord Price would be going on trade missions to China, Hong Kong and Brazil in order to strengthen Britain’s links with other economies.

[marton]

Prime Minister's question time today.

"For heaven's sake man, go!" David Cameron cried at Jeremy Corbyn, echoing Oliver Cromwell's address to the rump parliament ("in the name of God, go!")

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...-only-help-him

[marton]

	Quote:	Chuff
	It's not a paywall, I don't have a subscription and can view it fine. Pasted:

Good idea to borrow New Zealand top trade negotiators but they will have to up their game a bit; they usually take four to five years to sign an agreement. Plus there are a number of agreements not yet completed which have taken longer.

[curley]

	Quote:	lewton
	You can't have referenda on human rights. Therefore you can't have a referendum on same-sex marriage, abortion laws, freedom of religion, or capital punishment.

	Quote:	amogles
	Why not? As long as human right are decided by unelected people in UN commissions, shouldn't the people have a say in whether they agree or not. Suppose the UN were to decide that it is a human right that MPs can buy duck houses with public money, would you be fine if you could do nothing to stop that?

We should have a transnational referendum about referedums being legally binding being a human right.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	marton
	Good idea to borrow New Zealand top trade negotiators but they will have to up their game a bit; they usually take four to five years to sign an agreement. Plus there are a number of agreements not yet completed which have taken longer.

Canada was going to send a team, But they're all busy shaking their heads.

[st2lemans]

The only thing that I have learnt from this nonsense is that Nigel Farage is cooler than Donald Trump.

Tom

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	Canada was going to send a team, But they're all busy shaking their heads.

Tom

[jacek]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	surely the whole point of leaving europe is that the UK doesn't want to be part of the single market.

Then according to this, they all are going to be caught in a vicious circle, no?

European Union leaders have warned that the UK must honour the principle of free movement of people if it wants to retain access to the single market after it leaves the bloc.

Brexit: EU says no compromise on freedom of movement
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36659900