The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Sbrinz]

The Brexit campaign reminds me of the Scottish campaign to leave the UK. The same twisting of arguments, the same loud mouth politicians ignoring "the facts" presented by experts.

It would help the unbelievers if the pro Brexit members could show some real figures, instead of claiming that on the open market Britain will do better than in a regulated system.

The USA seems to do quite well. It has one government, one currency, one set of federal laws, one large home market. Why should Europe fail where the USA succeeds?

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	The USA seems to do quite well. It has one government, one currency, one set of federal laws, one large home market. Why should Europe fail where the USA succeeds?

So is the USA in the EU? Or has it managed to succeed outside the EU?

Not at all what Sbrinz said, is it? There is no reason why Europe could not work on the same model as the USA- as Sbrinz says.

Was listening to Swiss radio in the car yesterday - and they were joking about BREXIT and the UK always wanting to have their cake and eat it. One guy explained that this is the reason the USA flag as an extra spare *- so that when the UK leaves Europe, it can become part of the USA! I'd much rather be part of a united Europe, than a small and insignificant appendage to the USA, like a puppet on a string - especially if Drumpf becomes President.

[Phil_MCR]

For me, the key question is whether the UK wants to remain in the single market or not. This decision will have the greatest immediate impact.

If the answer is LEAVE, then I think the decision to leave the EU is straight-forward.

If the answer is STAY, then it is less clear as even assuming we stay in the single market exactly as today with all the commitments that brings, there might not be much point in going through all the hassle to leave the EU to avoid the rest of it.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:
	Not at all what Sbrinz said, is it? There is no reason why Europe could not work on the same model as the USA- as Sbrinz says.

There are many reasons why it doesn't work the same as the USA. As Greece has shown.

Maybe when all countries are happy to pay a 30% federal EU tax and then have the bulk of those taxes pay off greek debt and support the economies of the poorest countries, I will believe that we can have a US model in Europe.

The migrant crisis has proved also that the illusion of borderless EU fails at the first serious test.

No, the EU will NEVER be like the US and the more that the Eurocrats push for this, the more painful the unwinding of it will be.

We haven't yet experienced the full pain of undoing the single currency mistake yet.

[Sbrinz]

On Sunday morning TV a well known Conservative leader pointed out that within the EU nowhere is there a definition of the "Common market". It doesn't exist, there is a collection of treaties but no actual market.

So if the UK doesn't belong to the common market, it won't need to leave it. But it will need to cancel all the separate treaties, and experts in the past week have predicted this will take between 6 and 10 years!

Can you all imagine the confusion and difficulties when the agreements still exist for maybe solid products but not for liquids. For employment but not for transport?

	Quote:
	Not at all what Sbrinz said, is it? There is no reason why Europe could not work on the same model as the USA- as Sbrinz says. Was listening to Swiss radio in the car yesterday - and they were joking about BREXIT and the UK always wanting to have their cake and eat it. One guy explained that this is the reason the USA flag as an extra spare *- so that when the UK leaves Europe, it can become part of the USA! I'd much rather be part of a united Europe, than a small and insignificant appendage to the USA, like a puppet on a string - especially if Drumpf becomes President.

I'd much rather just be small and insignificant. Like Switzerland.

Europe will never be the same as the USA. The USA was founded on the idea of the creation of a new country. People have the same culture, language, mindset etc. Whereas I have more in common with my dog than Zoltan Bogdani the poultry farmer or Georgios Dimitriou the olive oil producer.

[Sbrinz]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	There are many reasons why it doesn't work the same as the USA. As Greece has shown... (Edited)

Agreed, and if there was one currency and one taxation system, none of these crises would have been an issue. The Greek and other "Poor south" problems would have been seen as they are in the USA, a regional problem, not as a constitutional crisis.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	On Sunday morning TV a well known Conservative leader pointed out that within the EU nowhere is there a definition of the "Common market". It doesn't exist, there is a collection of treaties but no actual market. So if the UK doesn't belong to the common market, it won't need to leave it. But it will need to cancel all the separate treaties, and experts in the past week have predicted this will take between 6 and 10 years! Can you all imagine the confusion and difficulties when the agreements still exist for maybe solid products but not for liquids. For employment but not for transport?

Do people really believe that there is some giant market square in Brussels where people from member states come and trade their wares?! Of course the single market is created through legal agreements!

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	Agreed, and if there was one currency and one taxation system, none of these crises would have been an issue. The Greek and other "Poor south" problems would have been seen as they are in the USA, a regional problem, not as a constitutional crisis.

there was one currency.

that was the cause of the crisis. as noted by economists before the creation of the euro, there economies were not aligned and so it wasn't possible to set an optimal interest rate for all the countries.

so predictably, the irish economy boomed and busted. the greeks borrowed on a tacit eu guarantee and the insanity of believing that greek debts were almost as trustworthy as german bonds.

this crisis was created by the single currency and ECB.

you don't even need one taxation. you just need the willingness to transfer those taxes collected under national taxation laws to pay off debts for other member states.

yes, the german taxpayer was understandably not happy about that.

so yes, in theory you might achieve a level playing field by transferring a lot of wealth from germany and other rich eu members to greece. assuming you can generate it faster than it can be spent and that the hard working taxpayers in germany are happy to continue to work and pay for other people to live a more relaxed life.

evidence and common sense so far suggests that it is unlikely to be accepted and you will face a different problem of rioting in germany!

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I'd much rather just be small and insignificant. Like Switzerland. Europe will never be the same as the USA. The USA was founded on the idea of the creation of a new country. People have the same culture, language, mindset etc. Whereas I have more in common with my dog than Zoltan Bogdani the poultry farmer or Georgios Dimitriou the olive oil producer.

"People have the same culture, language, mindset etc." Really? I suggest you take a trip to the East coast, say Boston, and then to the West, say Phoenix, and try to find the same culture & mindset!

[Phil_MCR]

i have a great admiration for the german ability to get stuff done. they set up a solidarity tax to pay for reunification. they quietly paid off war reparations ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...l-payment.html )

I wonder just how much punishment they can take?

when these chickens come home to roost, there could be trouble:

	Quote:	marton
	"People have the same culture, language, mindset etc." Really? I suggest you take a trip to the East coast, say Boston, and then to the West, say Phoenix, and try to find the same culture & mindset!

Exactly- the differences are actually much bigger I'd say in the USA having travelled all over, and with friends and relatives in so many States. Just as in Europe, those differences are getting less and less with every generation. My uncles and aunts and great uncles and aunts who emigrated to the USA in the 19C and 20C- would have lived totally different lives, those who went to Santa Fe, New York, Prescott, LA or San Fran, Colorado, New Jersey or Vermont- and Hoboken was totally different even to across River Manhattan in those days! Catholic Italians versus Presbytarian or Calvinist Europeans and Scots!

	Quote:	marton
	"People have the same culture, language, mindset etc." Really? I suggest you take a trip to the East coast, say Boston, and then to the West, say Phoenix, and try to find the same culture & mindset!

In all those places most schools still pledge to the flag every morning. That's the difference. They believe in their country.

	Quote:
	Exactly- the differences are actually much bigger I'd say in the USA

[lewton]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	The Brexit campaign reminds me of the Scottish campaign to leave the UK. The same twisting of arguments, the same loud mouth politicians ignoring "the facts" presented by experts. It would help the unbelievers if the pro Brexit members could show some real figures, instead of claiming that on the open market Britain will do better than in a regulated system. The USA seems to do quite well. It has one government, one currency, one set of federal laws, one large home market. Why should Europe fail where the USA succeeds?

Are your countrymen ready to give to Brussels as much power as Vermont, Oregon, California have given to Washington?
Personally I am but I belong to the minority across Europe.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	The USA seems to do quite well. It has one government, one currency, one set of federal laws, one large home market. Why should Europe fail where the USA succeeds?

Yeah, it stumbles from one day-to-day budget crisis to the next and is $13.6 trillion in debt. Working well I'd say.

What you forget is that the States was built from the beginning as one country. The EU wasn't and isn't. It's a coming together of individual countries to make up a union, nothing like the USA.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Exactly- the differences are actually much bigger I'd say in the USA having travelled all over, and with friends and relatives in so many States. Just as in Europe, those differences are getting less and less with every generation. My uncles and aunts and great uncles and aunts who emigrated to the USA in the 19C and 20C- would have lived totally different lives, those who went to Santa Fe, New York, Prescott, LA or San Fran, Colorado, New Jersey or Vermont- and Hoboken was totally different even to across River Manhattan in those days! Catholic Italians versus Presbytarian or Calvinist Europeans and Scots!

But in the US too, the folks on Capital Hill are not universally loved and many people, rightly or wrongly, blame the meddling of DC for their problems and believe they could have it better if they could work it out for themselves. This is why the topic of secession arises time and time again. It's less likely to happen though as the integration process has been running for much longer and thus the disruption of undoing it would be much greater.

[marton]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Yeah, it stumbles from one day-to-day budget crisis to the next and is $13.6 trillion in debt. Working well I'd say. What you forget is that the States was built from the beginning as one country. The EU wasn't and isn't. It's a coming together of individual countries to make up a union, nothing like the USA.

There was a Civil War when some states wanted to secede; it was not all roses!

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	lewton
	2. I am a bit sick of the British press and British people I meet randomly who will start whining about the EU this and the EU that (usually it is not the case with British expats I meet in Europe, but sometimes it is). It's like a failed marriage, let's get over it in friendly terms and each one can take their path.

I'm completely sick of the British press and how they misrepresent the facts time and time again for the sake of headlines.

I spent 8 years as a union rep in the UK, at the time when the European Working Time Directive was being introduced. We had to be intermediaries between the management who were belligerent but resigned to it, and an 800+ workforce who were choosing to believe the negative tabloid press over the actual directive.

Once we'd established the common ground between both parties, it was remarkably easy to 'sell' the terms of the directive to both. Management were better able to predict workforce availability to meet market / order demands, and the employees were able to manage their commitment to working overtime to meet those needs. It was a huge win / win.

The successful implementation of this directive, became a key point selling point for the company when submitting tenders. This snowballed into management asking the union to find the common ground on other EU employment initiatives, the union putting them to the workforce, etc...etc... But if you pay too much heed to the British media, it's a totally different story.

[Blueangel]

Longtime fan of cartoonist Steve Bell, and love this take on Boris and Cameron.