The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[porsch1909]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Answering Kosti as well - Corbyn said "“Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu Government than our Muslim friends are for those of various self-styled Islamic states or organisations." Comparing Israel to ISIS (or any other terrorist organizations Corbyn is a friend of) is antisemitic. The VICE documentary is an interseting, fly-on-the-wall, made by a corbyn supporter before Brexit.

The way I read it is that he's saying that all Jews don't like to murder innocent Palestinian children and bomb schools with laser guided missiles. Just like all Muslims don't want to behead journalists in the middle of the desert.

A fair statement

[Kosti]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Answering Kosti as well - Corbyn said "“Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu Government than our Muslim friends are for those of various self-styled Islamic states or organisations." Comparing Israel to ISIS (or any other terrorist organizations Corbyn is a friend of) is antisemitic. The VICE documentary is an interseting, fly-on-the-wall, made by a corbyn supporter before Brexit.

That is not a comparison between Daesh and Israel.

Again, from reading his whole text, he is addressing some Labour members, who, while opposed to Islamophobia, engage in antisemitism.

He is telling them that it is hypocritical to oppose Islamophobia, while not opposing antisemitism.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	porsch1909
	The way I read it is that he's saying that all Jews don't like to murder innocent Palestinian children and bomb schools with laser guided missiles. Just like all Muslims don't want to behead journalists in the middle of the desert. A fair statement

More like: Not all Jews agree to murdering innocent Palestinian children etc, and neither do all Muslims wish to behead journalists, specifically not those Jews and Palestinans that are his/his partys friends or possibly he meant a those who are British.

	Quote:	porsch1909
	The way I read it is that he's saying that all Jews don't like to murder innocent Palestinian children and bomb schools with laser guided missiles. Just like all Muslims don't want to behead journalists in the middle of the desert. A fair statement

You share Corbyn's blinkered way comparing Israeli action during wars where civilians are hurt (even though no other army had managed any better) to Terrorism.

Would Corbyn say "Our Pakistani friends are not responsible for the actions of Pakistan or it's Government which kill children and "lightly beat" their wives" ?

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	You share Corbyn's blinkered way comparing Israeli action during wars where civilians are hurt (even though no other army had managed any better) to Terrorism. Would Corbyn say "Our Pakistani friends are not responsible for the actions of Pakistan or it's Government which kill children and "lightly beat" their wives" ?

And you are apparently confusing what the man said, with what you would like him to have said. If you insist on straw manning him then at least twist the meaning of what he actually said, otherwise your argument boils down to something like "Politicians use language, ergo this one is a bad one"

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	And you are apparently confusing what the man said, with what you would like him to have said. If you insist on straw manning him then at least twist the meaning of what he actually said, otherwise your argument boils down to something like "Politicians use language, ergo this one is a bad one"

Let me see if I can follow your logic, do you say that corbyn sadi/meant:

1. Israel kills children
2. Islamic states & orgnaization kill children
3. Jews/Muslims shouldn't be blamed for the actions of the Jewish/Muslim states/organizations

?

[Uncle Max]

	Quote:	SOBEIT
	Just found a fiver in my pocket.

Makes up a bit for losing that tenner.

	Quote:	idefix
	Big Pic Of Boris On A Bike

Look at the size of that bike lane. Zurich has a lot to learn.

Labour membership is rocketing over the last week. Nobody seems to know what to do.



~~~~~~Hey can we steer clear of the Bash A Jew discussion on this thread? It's mental enough.~~~~~~

[porsch1909]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	You share Corbyn's blinkered way comparing Israeli action during wars where civilians are hurt (even though no other army had managed any better) to Terrorism. Would Corbyn say "Our Pakistani friends are not responsible for the actions of Pakistan or it's Government which kill children and "lightly beat" their wives" ?

Dead children at the hands of Israeli laser guided missiles can be argued to be a part of war...sure. But do all Jews agree with those actions? I don't think so. Which is the point Corbyn is making.

I think your second paragraph saying that all Pakistanis don't agree with the action of the Pakistani Government is entirely accurate and relevant!

I'm glad you finally get Corbyn's point.

[Castro]

	Quote:	Phos
	Of course this happens from both sides. Political media is now like a sitcom TV show, specially in the UK. It strives for cheap shrill over-reactions to gaffes, and social media is the laugh track. Its shitcom, really. Of course nobody remembers a punchline after a season. I think what people try remember is who stands for what. In this case, there is not a lot of sensational uproar called for. But the point he made for himself may be more enduring than one news cycle, or one election cycle. It came across as his genuine belief. I'm not so sure whether it added to or took away from their political capital. Nevertheless, it does not seem to be a unifying message for his party nor the UK.

My point, and that of many Labour party members is that he needs to be given a chance, its only been 9 months.

Lets not forget this is a man who has spent his entire career on the back benches, never holding any significant leadership position and completely oblivious to the party whip. Now he has been thrust into power, having to deal with staffing, budgets, intense media interest, prima donna MPs etc.. and that takes time to get your head around, especially when you face almost daily smear campaigns and the Ghosts of Nu-Labour past constantly sticking the knife in.

The Far Left have waited 30 years for this moment, so let them try, and if it fails they can go back to the wilderness for another 30 years. I just think that after 4 more years of Tory ravage, the country might well be ready for a Corbyn government.

No need to convince anyone of anything. Overreaction to what Corbyn said can be tempered, and overreaction really isn't necessary. Corbyn did position himself in that statement nevertheless, apparently thought out and premeditated. He simply just needs to live with it, that's all. Business as usual.

[Faltrad]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	1. Israel kills children 2. Islamic states & orgnaization kill children 3. Jews/Muslims shouldn't be blamed for the actions of the Jewish/Muslim states/organizations

In other words, collective responsibility does not equal individual responsibility and the other way around.

Responsibility is a six-dimensional concept. I use this link in my classes, in German: http://www.philosophie-erforschen.de...ntwortung.html

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Let me see if I can follow your logic, do you say that corbyn sadi/meant: 1. Israel kills children 2. Islamic states & orgnaization kill children 3. Jews/Muslims shouldn't be blamed for the actions of the Jewish/Muslim states/organizations ?

In one word: "No"

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	In one word: "No"

ok then, what is the logic?

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	ok then, what is the logic?

Perhaps what I wrote above is ambiguous. I don't think it is.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	porsch1909
	I think your second paragraph saying that all Pakistanis don't agree with the action of the Pakistani Government is entirely accurate and relevant!

Careful:
The last part refers to "pakistani friends", his use of plural ("kill") and "lightly beat wives" can only mean that, even though he should have used "who" instead of "which" in that case.

[porsch1909]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Careful: The last part refers to "pakistani friends", his use of plural ("kill") and "lightly beat wives" can only mean that, even though he should have used "who" instead of "which" in that case.

So what you're saying is Pashosh is a racist?

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Careful: The last part refers to "pakistani friends", his use of plural ("kill") and "lightly beat wives" can only mean that, even though he should have used "who" instead of "which" in that case.

finally, after 3500 posts, the thread goes off-topic!

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	finally, after 3500 posts, the thread goes off-topic!

But with 81850 views some people obviously haven't been trying very hard.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	porsch1909
	So what you're saying is Pashosh is a racist?

He clearly has a very one-sided POV, but from what he posts here racist seems exaggerated. Nor does that quote make him one as it was part of a question to you, rather than a statement.

What I do say, or am pointing you to, is that you may have misread his question.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Castro
	The Far Left have waited 30 years for this moment, so let them try, and if it fails they can go back to the wilderness for another 30 years. I just think that after 4 more years of Tory ravage, the country might well be ready for a Corbyn government.

No.

What I've seen from the far left in my lifetime, and even moreso over the past week, convinces me that an awful lot of their members should vote UKIP. They'd be more at home there.