The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	MidfieldGeneral
	Thanks this is excellent, it is a pity that Cameron and the Bremainers didn't argue these forcefully before the election (I confess I was ignorant) and nail the Leave campaign. With regard to the Leave campaign's lies, it doesn't surprise me at all: "Tell Giant Lies".

Because calling Breiters Nazis was a lot easier.

[JoeUK]

	Quote:	Chuff
	She has done a great job as home secretary for a long time and is a strong woman with an iron will with a track record for getting things done.

Like reducing immigration you mean? The greatest driver of the exit vote.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	JoeUK
	Like reducing immigration you mean? The greatest driver of the exit vote.

And how, pray tell, was she supposed to do that in any meaningful way when her wings were clipped by the PM and the EU? They didnt want her to take full reign on immigration, it wasn't a real option for the last government.

Either way I am not saying she is perfect, but she is the best of a bad bunch.

[Uncle Max]

	Quote:	idefix
	Because it's too funny to watch the minority losers cry afterwards. For the 1000th time, people living abroad didn't vote leave. The real UK people who are fed up, piss poor and have nothing to lose voted leave. Deal with it.

The piss poor have the most to lose. Corbyn's the only one making this point. I've bread and roses - never enough roses - but I'd like a political system where those who don't own a pot to piss in have an easier time. Society would improve. Such (rose tinted?) perspectives may not be an easy sell to those who have plenty and want more, but I'm not the only one.

	Quote:	Connor MacLeod
	Corbyn and his side kick are terrorist sympathising scumbags. The day someone like him is given control is the day Britain is finished.

I really like your posts but this is a bit wide. All very well booing the bogey man but if you can name me one senior politician not involved in Arms deals, dodgy financial deals which benefit the 1% at the expense of 99% or indeed anyone who doesn't have curious bedfellows then I'll buy you a pint.


Us and them is such a tired trope.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Castro
	I see it as more like a dare.. you're standing there holding a sh*t sandwich, honour bound to eat it, but do you really want to, do you really need to? Thats the question

Apparently it is, going by the letter of the law. But is it in practice? What would happen if, as has been outlined, the PMs voted No?

[MidfieldGeneral]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	Because calling Breiters Nazis was a lot easier.

and calling Bremainers "traitors" amongst other things was also easy

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	Uncle Max
	The piss poor have the most to lose. Corbyn's the only one making this point. I've bread and roses - never enough roses - but I'd like a political system where those who don't own a pot to piss in have an easier time.

There are elements of this I agree with. The helpless should be protected and supported. The feckless perhaps not.

The problem is weeding out the latter from the former and ensuring the "right" safety net is in place to protect those who need it. It shouldn't be one that means there is no incentive to work in a lower paid job.

[Uncle Max]

We can't do much about the feckless if that's their nature but for every Benefits Street nasty there are a thousand unappreciated carers, volunteers, mentally ill, refugees... the list goes on. Behind all the tribal finger jabbing are the people on the stinky end. I don't care if some made protest votes; it's the duty of leaders to lead and address society's ills, and it's our duty to remind Westminster just who's in charge.

The adverserial politicking is all well and good in the Junior Common Room but when the narrative is Bedroom Tax and Immigration rather than a Just Society, something's rotten. Mr Murdoch's editors share the blame.

[Phos]

	Quote:	Uncle Max
	We can't do much about the feckless if that's their nature but for every Benefits Street nasty there are a thousand unappreciated carers, volunteers, mentally ill, refugees... the list goes on. Behind all the tribal finger jabbing are the people on the stinky end. I don't care if some made protest votes; it's the duty of leaders to lead and address society's ills, and it's our duty to remind Westminster just who's in charge. The adverserial politicking is all well and good in the Junior Common Room but when the narrative is Bedroom Tax and Immigration rather than a Just Society, something's rotten. Mr Murdoch's editors share the blame.

I'd like to point out to you that your Conservatives are a lot more compassionate and liberal than what is considered Conservative and Right-Wing in most parts of the world. I was just reading through Gove and B.Johnson's backgrounds. I think you actually have something to work with there. In other places, it is so divisive and toxic there is no chance of it. I would suggest trying to work with it for those stated purpose, instead of demonising and poisoning it, if those stated purposes are the actual goals. Your country needs some unity. Just my 2 cents.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Faltrad
	Democracy is not supposed to be that different from place to place. Or you agree with the Chinese government, that is also a valid opinion.

I think you're quite wrong on that. There are huge differences between representative democracies and a half-direct one like CH. In many cases you vote for a party, once every four years on the national level, and that's all the say you ever get. In the US for instance it's even possible to get the president into office without the majority (for instance, Bush had 500'000 votes less than Gore).

[Odile]

	Quote:	idefix
	Because it's too funny to watch the minority losers cry afterwards. For the 1000th time, people living abroad didn't vote leave.

Do you have accurate stats on this? I made it plain I voted 'remain' - but many here have said clearly that they voted OUT- and so did many other expats I know in Spain and France. Give me factual evidence please.

My point however, was that if people have made a clear choice to leave permanently, and will not in any way, shape or form, benefit or suffer from, the consequences- should not real have the right to vote.

[Phil_MCR]

I think it would be fair to believe that a large part of the vote can be explained with this chart:

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs...come0625-1.jpg

Though I naturally lean to the economically conservative side, I think if we can control low wage migration, it would also make sense to raise the minimum wage and have business and consumers pay the price for a more equitable society.

[Odile]

	Quote:	SOBEIT
	I'm afraid that's how democracy works.

Democracy doesn't have to give expats who are no longer living and paying taxes in the country, and won't have to experience the consequences of their choice- the vote. Does it.

Richdog- I won't groan- but my post was very clear and all my marbles are very much in the right place and working, but thanks.

[NotAllThere]

	Quote:	Odile
	... My point however, was that if people have made a clear choice to leave permanently, and will not in any way, shape or form, benefit or suffer from, the consequences- should not real have the right to vote.

As a British citizen in CH, post Brexit, there is a chance (depending on the negotiations) that I will be unable to work in any EU country without a work permit. This will be true of any UK citizen resident in CH, who does not have dual nationality. That's one swutting big consequence for some of us!

For me, it's a real threat. Furthermore, my Swiss GmbH has contracts to provide services to UK based companies. There will be tariffs on trade which may well negatively affect my ability to continue.

[Odile]

One of the most interesting points of this campaign- is how this was NOT Tories against Labour, or vice-versa. Politicians at all levels and the people, irrespective of their usual political affiliation, have come strongly on both sides. I've never before agreed with Cameron, or Osborne, let alone Heseltine-
this campaign, the Referendum and the results- have united people who would have never worked together before- and also divided people from the same sides- in a way that had never happened before.

Anyhow, Heseltine today on Boris:

https://www.facebook.com/bbcnewsnigh...3679248706200/

let Boris show how he will sort this mess out- don't let him wriggle away, having sent the UK up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

And Gove is today promising that under his leadership, the EU WILL give the UK Trade Deals without free movement of people- just because he says so it WILL happen. Is he very confident and right, or totally and absolutely deluded?

[Phil_MCR]

If you have the right to vote, you have the right to vote. Frankly, it is quite unbelievable that people are trying to say such and such people shouldn't vote. If you have the right to vote, then the only person who should decide whether you exercise that right is yourself.

[NotAllThere]

	Quote:	Odile
	.... And Gove is today promising that under his leadership, the EU WILL give the UK Trade Deals without free movement of people- just because he says so it WILL happen. Is he very confident and right, or totally and absolutely deluded?

He is very confident and wrong and would very much like to be in power.

[JoeUK]

	Quote:	Chuff
	And how, pray tell, was she supposed to do that in any meaningful way when her wings were clipped by the PM and the EU? They didnt want her to take full reign on immigration, it wasn't a real option for the last government. Either way I am not saying she is perfect, but she is the best of a bad bunch.

Moot point when the majority of immigration in 2015 was from outside the EU.

[MidfieldGeneral]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	Here we go again. Move on - the vote is finished now time to deal with the result. The UK doesn't do referendums but if they did they'd create the whingiest, whiniest, most bitchingly annoying losers in the world. The way remainers go on you'd think that half the remain vote was thrown in the bin.

I think you forgot that Farage said that 52%-48% votes should lead to second referendum:

‘In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.’

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/rememb...#ixzz4DAVTOvD4

btw I'm not asking for a second referendum

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	Because calling Breiters Nazis was a lot easier.

Too simple and not entirely accurate. I far prefered self-serving, economically myopic, fools who stumbled blindly into voting in line with far right policy. Unfortunately, a lot of so called Labour supporters got sucked down that particular rabbit hole and are now the same people screaming for the beatification of Corbyn.

Then today, two creatures are given measly 12yr sentences for grooming, raping and murdering a 15yr old girl. Even Kay Burley looked on the verge of tears reading that breaking news story.


I truly despair for the UK.