The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	Moot point when the majority of immigration in 2015 was from outside the EU.

In 2014, roughly half net immigration came from EU, one quarter from Commonwealth, and another quarter from other countries.

Do Commonwealth countries have privileges with respect to immigration into the UK, and if so, which? Meaning, can politicians enact much change in the short term without breaching international treaties?

If my memory servies me right- it was Mrs Thatcher who gave the vote to expats- on the assumption that most would vote Conservative - well she knew they would in Zug- and she loved the place, for some reason.

A friend just re-posted this to me, and I just love Trevor Noah- so will post again, and leave you for a while in this 'dialogue de sourds':

https://www.facebook.com/IamSouthAfr...0977289283837/

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Do you have accurate stats on this? I made it plain I voted 'remain' - but many here have said clearly that they voted OUT- and so did many other expats I know in Spain and France. Give me factual evidence please. My point however, was that if people have made a clear choice to leave permanently, and will not in any way, shape or form, benefit or suffer from, the consequences- should not real have the right to vote.

Your point which you have gone to great lengths to bang in againa and again on different threads was that people living abroad who voted leave shouldn't have been allowed to vote in the first place.

Those who voted remain on the other hand ... that was perfect.

You are entitled to your opinion of course. But it's an interesting perspective on democracy.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:
	If my memory servies me right- it was Mrs Thatcher who gave the vote to expats- on the assumption that most would vote Conservative - well she knew they would in Zug- and she loved the place, for some reason.

Odile, are you calling for electoral reform in general, or just for the sake of the Brexit referendum?

If the former, just what would you like to see changed?

In general- the FPP system is not democratic- and neither is a non elected chamber- but perhaps not relevant to this thread- so let's stick to this Referendum.

Maybe the limit should be 5 years rather than 15. Just asking the question here- and the point is that many people are too disconnected from the UK and won't be affected by the consequences of their vote.

Now- warning- he swears a lot- but Jonathan does cut to the chase here.
:

https://www.facebook.com/RTUKnews/vi...5038167786060/

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:
	In general- the FPP system is not democratic- and neither is a non elected chamber- but perhaps not relevant to this thread- so let's stick to this Referendum. Maybe the limit should be 5 years rather than 15. Just asking the question here- and the point is that many people are too disconnected from the UK and won't be affected by the consequences of their vote. Now- warning- he swears a lot- but Jonathan does cut to the chase here. : https://www.facebook.com/RTUKnews/vi...5038167786060/

While I find that video entertaining (perhaps because I agree with some of what he says), I have to ask: Where were these people before the vote? The referendum is a done deal. The only thing that might be called for is a recount - why is it that I haven't heard any calls for a recount?

Could it be that demanding a recount is seen as too American, could it be that nobody anywhere on the Island has any doubt as to the veracity of the voting process?

I submit to you that there is a good chance that if there was a call for a recount, and if ballots with reproductive organs drawn on them were to be counted as valid (on the condition that they have only one "x", in one box or the other), then the numbers would turn out even worse.

If your argument that expats who have been away for too long are too disconnected, why should we then consider the disenfranchised anatomical doodlers as somehow more connected?

Do you think that one group of disenfranchised is preferable to some other?

[amogles]

It is entirely legitiomate to discuss the modlaities of a ballot, discuss how you define a valid ballot, discuss who is eligible to vote. All this I agree with and we definitely do not have the ideal system.

But that discussion should be independent of the outcome. Had the remain side won, would you still be holding this discussion and raising these points? If not, then its not really about the modality but about the result.

Between ballots there is a legitimate window to discuss and change the rules. Because then you can discuss in principle what democracy is, how you expect it to work and who you expect it to represent.

But trying to change the rules after the event is just being a bad loser.

JagWaugh- I agree it is a total mess. And that, although the OUT vote was manipulated and based on massive lies- and that a Referendum in the UK is NOT binding- with such a close result- whatever happens is going to be very difficult and leave so many angry and disenfranchised- dangerous even. I have no asnwer- just Angst and fears for the UK I so love, where my children and grand-children live and where we intend to return one day.

But did you listen to this man - he is perhaps the only one talking sense now- and before the Referendum- but Gove, the Sun and Farage clearly told people not to listen to experts- didn't they.

https://youtu.be/0dosmKwrAbI

Please, watch and listen.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:
	Democracy doesn't have to give expats who are no longer living and paying taxes in the country, and won't have to experience the consequences of their choice- the vote. Does it. .

But just because somebody doesn't live in a country doesn't mean they won't be affected by the consequences of a vote does it? Pensions, jobs etc could all be seriously affected by the outcome of a vote as significant as the Brexit one.

My husband worked for long enough in the UK to be entitled to a full UK pension and paid taxes and NI contributions during all that time. Why should he not be allowed to vote in something which may have an impact on his future pension when someone from another country who has only lived there for a few years is allowed to vote?

I agree that once someone has been resident abroad for a significant amount if time (5 years maybe) should forfeit the right to vote in local elections as they will not be affected by the outcome of those but I do think they should have a vote in a general election and especially in something as important as the EU referendum.
Many many people I know were not allowed to vote due to the 15 year rule but will be directly affected when Brexit comes into force, many of them losing their jobs. There have been huge numbers of Brits living in Belgium who have applied for Belgium citizenship both before the referendum ( in anticipation of a leave vote)and after (many more now). I imagine they will be much more reticent in granting it to people who have applied since last week.
Some do not qualify as lots of EU commission workers have special permit status in Belgium which means the don't fulfil the residency requirements.
All of those I know would have voted remain.

For Brits without dual nationality living in the EU the referendum result could have very serious implications but many of them couldn't vote.

	Quote:	amogles
	Odile, not long ago we were having the precise reverse of this discussion. I think it was about expats voting in UK elections despite not living there or paying taxes there. Yoiu were very much in arms that of course they should vote. You even said that you would be voting. And now you're saying people from outside shouldn't get involved. Has your position changed?

I believe her position was always the same. She posted in the EU referendum petition thread that she didn't think expats should vote in elections.
It didn't stop her voting in the referendum, though which she was perfectly entitled to do under the current system.

[SOBEIT]

	Quote:
	Democracy doesn't have to give expats who are no longer living and paying taxes in the country, and won't have to experience the consequences of their choice- the vote. Does it.

Yes it does, some expats if they receive a governmental pension are still taxed by the UK and it must be declared here for the yearly taxes too.

And as for the OUT campaign being manipulated by lies what about the REMAIN campaign!

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:
	JagWaugh- I agree it is a total mess. And that, although the OUT vote was manipulated and based on massive lies- and that a Referendum in the UK is NOT binding- with such a close result- whatever happens is going to be very difficult and leave so many angry and disenfranchised- dangerous even. I have no asnwer- just Angst and fears for the UK I so love, where my children and grand-children live and where we intend to return one day. But did you listen to this man - he is perhaps the only one talking sense now- and before the Referendum- but Gove, the Sun and Farage clearly told people not to listen to experts- didn't they. https://youtu.be/0dosmKwrAbI Please, watch and listen.

I agree that it is a mess, and also that something needs to be done, and I have watched his video, and commented on it in a previous post, and I submit to you that if you were to ask him about the legality of somehow "tuning" the existing result (which I, perhaps mistakenly, think you want to see), then I submit that his answer would be a resounding "NO".

Ask any member of a Junta if they subverted the democratic process for the sake of the nation, their answer will always be "Yes".

I am glad not to be British. If I were I would be hopping mad, but I would have been hopping mad in the leadup as well, and would have made myself thoroughly unpleasant (Which as we all know I rarely do) to anyone not thinking clearly.

When the votes were counted however, I would regretfully accept the will of the people, and resolve myself to faclitate change at a grass roots level.

Even I, with my almost infinite power of persuasion, am hard put to sway someone who is hell bent on believing a lie of astronomical proportions.

There was a lie campaign, but there was also a significant number of willing believers - this is where you need to set the lever.

Not that long ago Hellmut Kohl stood up and said "We are going to purchase and entirely renovate one of the poorest nations in Europe, and it won't cost the taxpayers a single Mark" (I am paraphrasing). It was a monumental lie, but the Germans accepted it as necessary. Some lies are necessary.

Democracy is prone to liars, Plato pointed this out a long time ago, but as he also observed out, it is the preferable system.

[Chuff]

This thread is becoming one giant broken record of the same people repeating the same things with slight variations.

[SOBEIT]

	Quote:	Chuff
	This thread is becoming one giant broken record of the same people repeating the same things with slight variations.

Well, it is Friday after all.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	SOBEIT
	Well, it is Friday after all.

Well, there is a "Why is my speeding ticket so expensive?" thread.

More election woes:

Austrian presidential election result overturned and must be held again

Court overturns result of election in which Alexander Van der Bellen narrowly beat far-right candidate Norbert Hofer.

	Quote:	Chuff
	This thread is becoming one giant broken record of the same people repeating the same things with slight variations.

I would hope that you're not excluding thy self?

[SOBEIT]

	Quote:
	I would hope that you're not excluding thy self?

Standby....

[JagWaugh]

I don't think we've explored the conspiracy theory potential of this thread sufficiently. Any takers?

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	I don't think we've explored the conspiracy theory potential of this thread sufficiently. Any takers?

Yes, please.

Gove & Blondie have agreed to make a show and a dance to get out of ruddy road to make room for remain May.. once done, and May, complete with the Tory crown, will try to squiggle and squirm out of the vote result.

It's set: game's afoot

I don't think I have ever seen the Torys working so well together

How did I do?

	Quote:	Chuff
	This thread is becoming one giant broken record of the same people repeating the same things with slight variations.

As everything is up in the air, no government, no opposition, no artlcle 50 and great doubts about the whole thing, with more and more evidence to the lies fed to the population- the same questions will indeed be repeated, until we have answers. Hardly suprising, really.

Anyone who currently is absolutely sure of what is going to happen is either completely bonkers, or delusional.

Yes BM- I am totally aware of the contradictions. To go back, as a Swiss aborad I could have voted in Switzerland on all issues for the whole of my 39 years in the UK. I didn't- as I was deconnected to the issues and never intended to be back. And I am now questionning my right to have voted in the Referendum, after 7 years- although we do very much feel NOT disconnected, watch UK TV, read UK Press, go back very often and have children and grandchildren who will de directly affected, and intend to go back at some point. I do question the motives of voting- of anyone here who has no intention of going back and who do not have very close relatives who will be directly affected- why vote?