The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Chuff]

	Quote:	idefix
	Why do we want to stop our basic human instinct?

Bit of a dumb question. We have been successfully stopping it for several decades now, and regardless of our involvement in the middle east and resulting terrorist activity, our current society is a clear indicator of that.

It's very likely that in a century or two wars will be a thing of the past.

[marton]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	And the EU works totally different than the US. Tom

• Single currency
• Central court striking down laws in member states
• Some laws made centrally
• All trade deals negotiated centrally
• Concern over strengthening external borders
• Non-elected people in charge of major departments

Remind us what is different?

	Quote:	idefix
	it's human nature to fight, kill and dominate. Why do we want to stop our basic human instinct?

Why- this quote perhaps makes the best case for it.

17 killion were killed in WW1, and 20 mio wounded. That's reason enough, Id say.

The war in Yugoslavia was an internal war- and Europe could do little to prevent it. It was always a troubled region, I am sad to say. (My mother was a guest at Court in Zagreb and Bled twice in 1927 and 1928, and always knew it would all end in lots of tears and blood.)

[idefix]

	Quote:	Chuff
	Bit of a dumb question. We have been successfully stopping it for several decades now, and regardless of our involvement in the middle east and resulting terrorist activity, our current society is a clear indicator of that. It's very likely that in a century or two wars will be a thing of the past.

Succesfully stopping war for decades now?! LOL

What about Ukraine? Or that is not EU? That is in Europe, on the border with Poland, EU country.

What about Iraq? What about Syria? What about Lybia? Or those are too far away for you to consider worthy to mention?

You are absolutely crazy to think that wars will stop one day. There always will be wars.

[marton]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	They weren't part of the EU, though. Tom

	Quote:	SOBEIT
	Never said they were.

So you agree with Odile that there were no wars in or between EU members and the EU is a force for internal peace?

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	I think that is one of the most insidiously damaging things about the EU. It seems to have brain-washed people into thinking that the EU is the only way that Europe can collaborate and work together (i.e. within a framework of law which forces countries into submission through threats or QMV and which overthrows democratically elected governments and replaces them with technocrats, or bullies governments with economic threats e.g. Ireland bailout or Brexit).

The handling of the migrant crisis for example has failed and it's down to Merkel and her influence over the Brussels. Without any effective rules/clear and fair methods in place to deal with immigration, Merkel could call the shots and invite families and children without support to march across Europe to her front door. Encouraging more and more people to cross the dangerous seas and get dumped in poor Greece, once the balkans closed their doors.

What a mess! Médecins Sans Frontiers have told the EU to stuff their donation this year in protest at the inhumane way immigrants are being dumped in Greece and the dodgy quick-solution, ill-thought out EU deal done with Turkey. You would think that sound thinking would've sought an effective and positive solution with all countries and human rights organizations involved in the process, but unfortunately the EU doesn't work like that.

Of course you have to acknowledge the many positives to the EU's work and one which I have always agreed with, and admired is now under threat. A pity.

The EU could be great, if only it would reform.. soon it'll be too late. Cameron told them last week their failing on immigration was to blame for Brexit, I wonder the reaction..

[greenmount]

	Quote:
	Why- this quote perhaps makes the best case for it. 17 killion were killed in WW1, and 20 mio wounded. That's reason enough, Id say. The war in Yugoslavia was an internal war- and Europe could do little to prevent it. It was always a troubled region, I am sad to say. (My mother was a guest at Court in Zagreb and Bled twice in 1927 and 1928, and always knew it would all end in lots of tears and blood.)

Consequences of the rule of the Ottoman Empire...
That0s why it was always a troubled region. Add in the Austro-Hungarians and the dominance of only 2 nationalities and you get the real picture. :-)
Anyway, let's not mix Yugoslavia here. EU was not based on the same principles.

[idefix]

	Quote:
	Why- this quote perhaps makes the best case for it. 17 killion were killed in WW1, and 20 mio wounded. That's reason enough, Id say. The war in Yugoslavia was an internal war- and Europe could do little to prevent it. It was always a troubled region, I am sad to say. (My mother was a guest at Court in Zagreb and Bled twice in 1927 and 1928, and always knew it would all end in lots of tears and blood.)

And so what milions were killed or wounded? In war terms, that's only a number. Who remembers today of victims? Nobody. As Stalin famously said "People can be born, but land can not"

We are very naive to think wars can be stopped.

Yugoslavia was an example of EU, it was a mini-EU, the same system just like this bureaucratic EU. The war while seemed internal, it was among different nations of different language, religion and culture so it's exactly same as the EU.

Yugoslavia broke apart when money ran out, Slovenia saw Serbs printing money like crazy and knew the economy will collapse. Why I find it the same now with the Draghi keeping the EUR press hot and the British not wanting to support failing economies like Greece and Spain?

[SOBEIT]

	Quote:	marton
	So you agree with Odile that there were no wars in or between EU members and the EU is a force for internal peace?

Did that question get asked?

[idefix]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Consequences of the rule of the Ottoman Empire... Anyway, let's not mix Yugoslavia here. EU was not based on the same principles.

This is your biggest mistake! EU has the same principle of functioning just like Yugoslavia.

Unelected president - CHECK
Endless bureaucratic structure that gives nothing - CHECK
People can't have their democratic right exercised - CHECK
National feelings are suppressed to promote EU/YU ideology - CHECK
Single currency market with printing pressed overheating - CHECK

And many many more similarities. And EU will ended at the exact same place where YU ended - when money becomes an issue.

Real problem in Yugoslavia was never religion or national feelings. People were very happy to be comrades and brothers. Once money stopped flowing, nobody wanted to pay the bill. Suddenly everybody become nationalist

[Chuff]

	Quote:	idefix
	Succesfully stopping war for decades now?! LOL What about Ukraine? Or that is not EU? That is in Europe, on the border with Poland, EU country. What about Iraq? What about Syria? What about Lybia? Or those are too far away for you to consider worthy to mention? You are absolutely crazy to think that wars will stop one day. There always will be wars.

My post was clear, you are just being obtuse.

[idefix]

	Quote:	Chuff
	My post was clear, you are just being obtuse.

No, your post was a copy/paste from a EU pamphlet-propaganda, with no relation to real life.

Ukraine, which hosted the Euro 2012, for the last 2 years is in a full scale war! With airliners getting shot and people hung on trees. Ukraine is on the border with EU.

But...we have no wars in the EU

More than obtuse- quite sick really.

Millions remembered yesterday the battle of the Somme- all over Europe and especially in the UK. Lest we forget.

[SOBEIT]

	Quote:
	More than obtuse- quite sick really. Millions remembered yesterday the battle of the Somme- all over Europe and especially in the UK. Lest we forget.

We won't.

[MidfieldGeneral]

	Quote:	idefix
	This is your biggest mistake! EU has the same principle of functioning just like Yugoslavia. Unelected president - CHECK Endless bureaucratic structure that gives nothing - CHECK People can't have their democratic right exercised - CHECK National feelings are suppressed to promote EU/YU ideology - CHECK Single currency market with printing pressed overheating - CHECK And many many more similarities. And EU will ended at the exact same place where YU ended - when money becomes an issue. Real problem in Yugoslavia was never religion or national feelings. People were very happy to be comrades and brothers. Once money stopped flowing, nobody wanted to pay the bill. Suddenly everybody become nationalist

for all the wrong reasons.....have a good day!

[idefix]

	Quote:
	More than obtuse- quite sick really. Millions remembered yesterday the battle of the Somme- all over Europe and especially in the UK. Lest we forget.

Milions remembered yesterday for something that happened 100 years ago.

In the last 100 years after that battle we killed, tortured, massacred hundreds of millions.

I guess in 100 years we won't forget the victims of today as well.

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	marton
	Single currency Central court striking down laws in member states Some laws made centrally All trade deals negotiated centrally Concern over strengthening external borders Non-elected people in charge of major departments Remind us what is different?

Guns.
Elected president.
Elected representatives.
Common language.
No fringe parties in power.
All drive on the same side of the road.

Etc.

Tom

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	marton
	Single currency Central court striking down laws in member states Some laws made centrally All trade deals negotiated centrally Concern over strengthening external borders Non-elected people in charge of major departments Remind us what is different?

it's not a single currency

or a single language

single army

shared responsibility over budget/finances

i guess some of these will change...

Well idefix, this guy agrees with you to some extent. Although I believe his conclusion is very different to yours- and is that we have to listen to what history tells us.

https://www.facebook.com/Thomson.Reu...4363823580407/

In the meantime, massive cuts are planned for the poorest regions of the UK- those that voted OUT- and the anger and racism won't be far behind, tragically.

[marton]

	Quote:	idefix
	And so what milions were killed or wounded? In war terms, that's only a number. Who remembers today of victims? Nobody. As Stalin famously said "People can be born, but land can not" We are very naive to think wars can be stopped. Yugoslavia was an example of EU, it was a mini-EU, the same system just like this bureaucratic EU. The war while seemed internal, it was among different nations of different language, religion and culture so it's exactly same as the EU. Yugoslavia broke apart when money ran out, Slovenia saw Serbs printing money like crazy and knew the economy will collapse. Why I find it the same now with the Draghi keeping the EUR press hot and the British not wanting to support failing economies like Greece and Spain?

"Yugoslavia broke apart when money ran out" The basic issue was that Tito died and then there was no strong man available to hold the country together.
After that it was only a matter of time.