The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:
	Oh but it does, it is just 'different': The British Constitution is derived from a number of sources. Statutes are laws passed by Parliament and are generally the highest form of law. Conventions are unwritten practices which have developed over time and regulate the business of governing. Common law is law developed by the courts and judges through cases. The UK’s accession to the European Communities Act 1972 has meant that European law is increasingly impacting on the British Constitution. The UK is also subject to international law. Finally, because the British Constitution cannot be found in any single document, politicians and lawyers have relied on constitutional authorities to locate and understand the constitution.

I would substitute "debatable" with "different" and let the rest stand.

They will just "muddle on", perhaps one of the tensions between Britain and the EU is precisely this: the difference between codification and muddling on.

[adrianlondon]

	Quote:	Faltrad
	Getting German citizenship is the issue here

No it isn't. You seem to understand neither the article nor my previous post.

Germany does not allow dual-citizenship except for EU and Swiss citizens. They are considering adding the UK (when it stops being part of the EU) to that list.

Or am I the one not understanding? It seems so clear ...

Total klar Adrian.

[Faltrad]

	Quote:	adrianlondon
	Or am I the one not understanding?

No it's me, sorry, because I was wrong about the UK: It is allowed to legally renounce citizenship in the UK, which I for some reason thought was not possible, like it used to be the case in France. I obviously mixed up with something else.

I was referring to the German rule that if there is no legal procedure for renouncement, dual citizenship is accepted de facto. But it doesn't apply to the UK, which I wrongly was convinced of. Sorry for the mix up.

[Sbrinz]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	A few facts need to be considered, .......... the proposed EU constitution was revoked by the French, and then the Dutch & Irish. The EU brought the new constitution into law, by calling it the Treaty of Lisbon. Did the UK sign up for this?

Yes,

In the UK, the European Union (Amendment) Bill was debated in the House of Commons on 21 January 2008, and passed its second reading that day by a vote of 362 to 224; Prime Minister Gordon Brown was absent that day; the Bill was proposed to the Commons by David Miliband.
The Treaty of Lisbon entered into force on 1 December 2009.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	Oh but it does, it is just 'different': The British Constitution is derived from a number of sources. Statutes are laws passed by Parliament and are generally the highest form of law. Conventions are unwritten practices which have developed over time and regulate the business of governing. Common law is law developed by the courts and judges through cases. The UK’s accession to the European Communities Act 1972 has meant that European law is increasingly impacting on the British Constitution. The UK is also subject to international law. Finally, because the British Constitution cannot be found in any single document, politicians and lawyers have relied on constitutional authorities to locate and understand the constitution.

Reality is that there is not constitution and there is no constitutional court. The constitution is whatever the parliament or more accurately the Prime Minister says it is. Hence the idea of a sovereign parliament. The above explanation has been delivered countless times to passive citizens, but as we are now seeing it falls short of what is expected in a modern democracy.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	There is, after all, a tradition of EU member states repeating referendums on EU-related matters until voters eventually vote the “right” way.

Well this is simply not true, but a nice twist for those are anti-EU or lost a referendum!

In the case of Ireland, who have rejected two treaty amendments in the past, the government only negotiates as agent for the Irish people and not as a principle. This means that the EU cannot ignore an Irish referendum precisely because they are in negotiation with the Irish people and in negotiations there can be rejections, counter offers, assurances etc..., which are fully in line with the provisions of the Irish constitution.

In the case of the Lisbon treaty, the second offer included:
- The retention of Ireland's right to nominate a commissioner, independent of the other small states
- The restriction on the commission to legislate in the areas of taxation, abortion and military affairs.
These were the main concerns of the Irish voters and they were addressed. Hence the second proposal was accepted by 67% of the voters as opposed to 47% in the previous referendum.

In the coming two years we may be in for a series of referenda in Denmark, France and Ireland as 25 states and the peoples of 3 others seek to find common ground or the Commission may only offer EEA membership and WTO trading rules, to avoid such referenda...

[dodgyken]

The UK has a constitution??

That's new.

[Faltrad]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	The UK has a constitution?? That's new.

Just because it's not all published in one single book doesn't mean the UK doesn't have constitutional laws. It is simply derived from diverse sources like treaties, acts of parliaments, conventions, judgements etc. The only fundamental difference being that there is no instance higher than parliament, so no law can be unconstitutional by definition in the UK. But all the functions of a constitution are to be found in the legislative corpus of the country, its structure is just different, it's more like a kind of big Google Doc.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	The UK has a constitution?? That's new.

No, it's not. It's simply an unwritten one, unlike most other countries, having developed over the centuries. Some parts are written such as the Magna Carta and the UK's Bill of Rights of 1689.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

But there is no one document such as the US Constitution or the Swiss one.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	Faltrad
	Just because it's not all published in one single book doesn't mean the UK doesn't have constitutional laws. It is simply derived from diverse sources like treaties, acts of parliaments, conventions, judgements etc. The only fundamental difference being that there is no instance higher than parliament, so no law can be unconstitutional by definition in the UK. But all the functions of a constitution are to be found in the legislative corpus of the country, its structure is just different, it's more like a kind of big Google Doc.

So not a constitution then in the way most countries view one.

[Faltrad]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	So not a constitution then

If you restrict the definition of constitution to what you know about the US or Napoleon, then fine, but the rest of the world is not obliged to comply to this restriction.

	Quote:	dodgyken
	So not a constitution then in the way most countries view one.

As was perfectly clear in my post.

Jim 2007, your false quote is so out of order:

'Odile
There is, after all, a tradition of EU member states repeating referendums on EU-related matters until voters eventually vote the “right” way.,

Where and when did I write this, please?

[Chuff]

	Quote:
	Jim 2007, your false quote is so out of order: 'Odile There is, after all, a tradition of EU member states repeating referendums on EU-related matters until voters eventually vote the “right” way., Where and when did I write this, please?

Erm... The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

It was a quote- not my words though.

[curley]

	Quote:	idefix
	It's the last signs of life for the EU as we know it...One more LEAVE referendum in Netherlands or France and Bye Bye EU. In 5 years we'll be laughing for these undemocratic measures the EU is forcing upon sovereign states!

your word in Gods ear. Germany will not just back down "ah well, you don't want it, okay then ...." this thing will be a power struggle and I hope the guns won't come out.

	Quote:	idefix
	Obviously you were 3 and a half when Yugoslavia broke apart, so you don't know much about it, don't you?

It doesn't matter how old or young he was ..... he's here now and he's got an opinion. Everytime someone runs out of arguments he/she tries a killer argument like yuo're too young/too old/stupid/a foreigner who should not have an opinion on other countries ..... that's not how democracy works.

	Quote:	Faltrad
	Just because it's not all published in one single book doesn't mean the UK doesn't have constitutional laws. It is simply derived from diverse sources like treaties, acts of parliaments, conventions, judgements etc. The only fundamental difference being that there is no instance higher than parliament, so no law can be unconstitutional by definition in the UK. But all the functions of a constitution are to be found in the legislative corpus of the country, its structure is just different, it's more like a kind of big Google Doc.

So the actual parliament holds all the power? And the next one can change everything around again? No one to answer to? (genuine question). Kind of a group dictatorship?

[yacek]

	Quote:	curley
	so the actual parliament holds all the power? And the next one can change everything around again? No one to answer to? (genuine question). Kind of a group dictatorship?

Where does this infallibility belief in a constitutional court comes from?

[fatmanfilms]

Osborne who was going to increase tax in an emergency budget, has now decided to cut corporation tax.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36699642

[vuachère]

Bloomberg reports that Farage has quit being leader of UKIP!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...pendence-party