The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Phil_MCR]

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...9c&oe=57F377B3

[Phos]

The biggest sickness I find in politics in the UK and the US is that it is personality driven. People actually vote away their principles in favor of personalities. This can only attract megalomaniacs and a mob herd mentality. Very little discussions about the philosophical principles these pseudo-celebrity talking heads stand on. Perhaps because most of them stand on very little of it. Hence, you see spineless politics as it is today.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	hairybadger
	Tomato, tomato - subject, citizen, citoyen, who cares? Apart from a limited set of cases all Brits have been "British citizens" (look on the passport) for decades in any case. The UK may not practise direct democracy, but it is a far stretch to argue that it's less democratic than other similar nations. How about Norway or Australia, for starters? Are they undemocratic?

The comparisons are yours, not mine.

I don't know if you care, but you probably should. There's a reason why the UK parliament is the (de facto) sovereign instead of the people, and can choose whether to heed the vote or not.

[vuachère]

	Quote:	Phos
	The biggest sickness I find in politics in the UK and the US is that it is personality driven. People actually vote away their principles in favor of personalities. This can only attract megalomaniacs and a mob herd mentality.

Makes one yearn for those olden days, for e.g. when E. Blackadder's campaign was based on issues and not personalities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26y70Jz7ngY (around 15.30th minute if you are curious)

[hairybadger]

	Quote:	baboon
	IIRC neither has an unelected House of Lords which puts them a major step up from the UK. Both have propotional representation or at least a form of it which puts them another step up. So the UK is considerably less democratic than either imo.

For what it's worth the UK democratically rejected proportional representation in a referendum The House of Lords - OK. But it can (now) be overrruled.

[Phil_MCR]

I quite like the bicameral system. I think the house of lords have generally done a good job.

Sometimes, I guess it is not so much the structure as the quality.

[Odile]

In the meantime the CEO of Credit Suisse, from the Ivory Coast, blames lack of quality education:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...ptfavfq69zr529

PhilMCR - it is not about 'liking' or 'disliking' - it is about democracy or not. The FPP system + non-elected chamber do not really add up to 'democracy' in the eyes of many other countries- quality or not.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Odile
	In the meantime the CEO of Credit Suisse, from the Ivory Coast, blames lack of quality education: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...ptfavfq69zr529 PhilMCR - it is not about 'liking' or 'disliking' - it is about democracy or not. The FPP system + non-elected chamber do not really add up to 'democracy' in the eyes of many other countries- quality or not.

I think it is more about what the limits of democracy are, in the sense that even a mature democratic system can be hollowed out from the inside and fail to guide a nation well, despite all the trappings.

Harper's fall in Canada was in part a reaction to the hollowing out. I'm not sure that the rockstar PM is going to get everything right, but he doesn't seem to be a national threat in the way that the previous govt. was.

The situation in the States isn't very encouraging either.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Odile
	He is totally a coward, because he hasn't got the courage to see through what he has done, and doesn't want to endure the dangerous situation and 'unpleasant consequences he and BoJo have thrown the country into. I add total ba*ta*d too.

Interesting folks these EFers.

In Switzerland Blocher has won a large number of populist referenda. And these EFers all cry, time for him to step back.

In the UKIP, Farage and Boris win a referendum, and the same people cry, what cowards to be stepping back.

[Phos]

	Quote:	amogles
	Interesting folks these EFers. In Switzerland Blocher has won a large number of populist referenda. And these EFers all cry, time for him to step back. In the UKIP, Farage and Boris win a referendum, and the same people cry, what cowards to be stepping back.

Still so much hogwash to avoid the obvious. I think it is insulting to suggest the UK voted for Brexit because they are mostly ignorant and misinformed fools. I suppose it is like suggesting those who voted Remain lacked self-respect, and lacked a sense of identity.

I'm not British, yet I find it insulting for the country. For sure, the insinuations are self-denigrating and counter productive for the country. If anything, I see they voted for Brexit because they still had some self-respect left for their culture and themselves. That deserves kudos and encouragement. That deserves congratulations, AFAIC. And I believe they will reap the rewards of it, while avoiding all the incompetent failures of the EU.

Honestly, I think those who voted for Brexit were simply smarter than those who are crying about it now.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	Phos
	Honestly, I think those who voted for Brexit were simply smarter than those who are crying about it now.

Nah.

[Odile]

Well at least here is one foreigner who understood what it was all about:

https://www.facebook.com/veryBrexitp...7496853059503/

[amogles]

	Quote:	Phos
	I have a lot more respect for a leader who knows when to resign, and know their participation will not further contribute to anything. I rather despise politicians who think their own personal political ambitions and their personality is the answer to all things for everyone. So kudos to Cameron, Johnson and Farage. And boos for Gove and Corbyn, AFAIC. I think they are in it for their own egos.

I think there's more to it than that.

I believe it is generally better when the political centre holds the bulk of power. They are less prone to knee jerk reactions but implement change slowly and predictably.

But left to themselves, they would get too cosy. This is where the mad dogs of both the far left and far right come in. They challenge ideas, introduce new ones, call people to account, and if need be, rally the mob. There is thus a role for Corbyn as much as there is for Farage.

But after having done their calling to account and mob rallying, they need to step back and give the rudder back to the boring centrist leaders.

In this respect, Farage and Boris have done the right thing. In fact Boris generally is a centrist - a Tory by affiliation but a heart for the weak and needy. But in this situation he allied himself with extremist forces and so needs to step back to cut ties to them. I'm sure at some point the old cuddly teddybear Boris will be back.

In my opinion, what has gone wrong in US politics is that this policy has vanished. There is virtually no centre ground in politics any more. The Republicans are drifting to the right as the Dems are drifting to the left. You only need to observe debates such as abortion or gun right to see the battlefield is drawn between the allow it all camp and the allow nothing camp. Reasonable compromising midway positions are being drowned out. Now I respect those who introduce and defend the extreme positions but there comes a time that they need to relinquish them so the centre ground can heal the wounds and restore normality. In my view, that is what the US is losing.

[Odile]

Programme now on BBC1 on the reasons for OUT vote.

[Phos]

	Quote:	amogles
	In my opinion, what has gone wrong in US politics is that this policy has vanished. There is virtually no centre ground in politics any more. The Republicans are drifting to the right as the Dems are drifting to the left. You only need to observe debates such as abortion or gun right to see the battlefield is drawn between the allow it all camp and the allow nothing camp. Reasonable compromising midway positions are being drowned out. Now I respect those who introduce and defend the extreme positions but there comes a time that they need to relinquish them so the centre ground can heal the wounds and restore normality. In my view, that is what the US is losing.

I think we refer to this a a scorched earth policy. Win at all cost, and never mind the repercussions. In the end, you try to bully your platform through, which is damaging to discourse.

I think Boris recognised that the Brexiters cannot appear to be the sole owners of this referendum. This referendum must be respected and accepted by the whole country as its democratic decision. Had Boris gone for full control, the way Gove is doing now, should they win the PM job, they will bare the whole burden of the whole thing, including and snafus and failures that arise from it. The other side will simply step back and watch the country fail, just so they can say "I told you so". Which is spineless of a different kind.

I think Boris and Farage made the right strategic move, to get the country to own up to what it has done. 45.5 million voters voted for a 72% turnout. The country has to own up to it itself.

[ZuriRollt]

	Quote:	Odile
	Programme now on BBC1 on the reasons for OUT vote.

Don't find it - would be great to have the details - thanks

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	ZuriRollt
	Don't find it - would be great to have the details - thanks

I presume Odile means Panorama, started at 20:30 local time.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	hairybadger
	How about Norway or Australia, for starters? Are they undemocratic?

Well I don't know about Norway, but Australia operates a Westminster style democracy but closer to Ireland than the UK, in that there is a written constitution that can only be changed by referendum.

[JoeUK]

	Quote:	Phos
	I think we refer to this a a scorched earth policy. Win at all cost, and never mind the repercussions. In the end, you try to bully your platform through, which is damaging to discourse. I think Boris recognised that the Brexiters cannot appear to be the sole owners of this referendum. This referendum must be respected and accepted by the whole country as its democratic decision. Had Boris gone for full control, the way Gove is doing now, should they win the PM job, they will bare the whole burden of the whole thing, including and snafus and failures that arise from it. The other side will simply step back and watch the country fail, just so they can say "I told you so". Which is spineless of a different kind. I think Boris and Farage made the right strategic move, to get the country to own up to what it has done. 45.5 million voters voted for a 72% turnout. The country has to own up to it itself.

Did your extra 12 million voters come from hot air?

[Phos]

	Quote:	JoeUK
	Did your extra 12 million voters come from hot air?

No, it came from the number of the electorate here:
http://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

46,501,241

Those of that number that didn't vote apparently felt neutral enough to not vote, which is a position they've taken in itself.