The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	You claimed there was a correlation. Now you prove it.

I posted "Every poll showed most of the educated people voted remain."
You replied with some statistics about children who are too young too vote

Now you want me to prove there was a correlation; so look at the picture below. Full details on the "yougov" site.

[dodgyken]

I see - so now you only want to let people with A-levels or degrees vote??

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	I see - so now you only want to let people with A-levels or degrees vote??

Perhaps he means only people who can follow an argument should be allowed to vote.

Makes sense to me.

[marton]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	Although tax is supposed to be within the hands of individual countries, it hasn't stopped the EU from impacting. e.g. interpreting use of freedom of movement of capital rules to say that losses in non-UK EU companies should be able to be used to reduce taxes in UK companies in cases that went all the way to the CJEU and required amendments to UK tax legislation to make the 'EU compatible' (including retrospective changes) Then there was the case of Italian IRAP, which probably should have been declared an illegal VAT, but in the tradition of shoddy EU institutions, it seems like they figured on the result they wanted and then back-rationalised a reason for it: http://www.empcom.gov.in/WriteReadDa...le/2007-60.pdf Then there is VAT which is controlled by the EU and which does not allow competition by imposing a minimum mainstream VAT rate of 15%. Also witness the ridiculous debate where the UK was prevented from zero-rating tampons - even with the Brexit debate and commitment to change this - nothing has materialised yet. Score one for EU bureaucracy and deduct one for the ability to make nimble decisions and policies. As for competitive, the UK has reduce it's headline CT rate from 30% to 20% over the last few years. The VAT registration threshhold is also one of the biggest in the EU at £83k - if only the EU had imposed a minimum registration threshhold to eliminate red tape in the rest of Europe. In some countries there is no minimum at all, so to sell to these countries even €1 of goods requires a full VAT registration and compliance. If the EU really wanted to reduce barriers, there could be much better systems, but there's still an underlying attitude of protectionism.

"does not allow competition by imposing a minimum mainstream VAT rate of 15%." Switzerland seems to have escaped this!
All EU countries except Luxembourg have VAT rates well over 15% anyway so a minimum rate of 15% is not relevant to anything in the real world!

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	Perhaps he means only people who can follow an argument should be allowed to vote. Makes sense to me.

Which one??

[marton]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	I see - so now you only want to let people with A-levels or degrees vote??

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	Perhaps he means only people who can follow an argument should be allowed to vote. Makes sense to me.

I don't care who votes.
The statistics simply show most educated people voted for Remain.

It is a fact of democracy that many people who can't follow an argument are allowed to vote.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	marton
	"does not allow competition by imposing a minimum mainstream VAT rate of 15%." Switzerland seems to have escaped this! All EU countries except Luxembourg have VAT rates well over 15% anyway so a minimum rate of 15% is not relevant to anything in the real world!

Switzerland is outside the EU.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	marton
	I don't care who votes. The statistics simply show most educated people voted for Remain. It is a fact of democracy that many people who can't follow an argument are allowed to vote.

It simply shows that those with academic based qualifications voted Remain. Unsurprisingly these statistics would correlate with the age groups that voted. After all it is estimated that in the over 65 group over 50% have no formal qualifications.

Archive statistics

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	marton
	I don't care who votes. The statistics simply show most educated people voted for Remain. It is a fact of democracy that many people who can't follow an argument are allowed to vote.

Perhaps people advocating this simple-minded argument are revealing themselves to be the stupid ones.

No doubt the more educated ones voted for remain. I would suspect it is because the less educated ones are precisely the ones who have economically suffered due to globalisation/immigration compared to educated ones who have benefited the most.

So if everyone simply votes on the basis of self-interest, you would expect this split.

It would be interesting to see whether if you adjusted for this income/class disparity whether there remains a bias.

Also the EU has effectively 'bought-off' the science vote since so much science funding goes via the EU. So I would expect a disproportionate Remain vote from those in research which presumably also correlates to higher education levels.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	Which one??

The bit where he substantiated his claim, with a chart.

He was making an observation of fact.

I am starting to take the position that Britain voted for the right choice, for all the wrong reasons, and now they are blaming the whole thing on anybody other than themselves.

You can't claim "It was a suckerpunch/conspiracy by the politicians/press!" when there was ample opportunity to evaluate the options and positions presented, avail yourself of even minimal market knowledge (the Pound went down???), not to mention significant factual information about what the EU norms, regulations and financial arrangements are.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	Perhaps people advocating this simple-minded argument are revealing themselves to be the stupid ones. No doubt the more educated ones voted for remain. I would suspect it is because the less educated ones are precisely the ones who have economically suffered due to globalisation/immigration compared to educated ones who have benefited the most. So if everyone simply votes on the basis of self-interest, you would expect this split. It would be interesting to see whether if you adjusted for this income/class disparity whether there remains a bias. Also the EU has effectively 'bought-off' the science vote since so much science funding goes via the EU. So I would expect a disproportionate Remain vote from those in research which presumably also correlates to higher education levels.

The entire borough of Islington voted "Remain".

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	I posted "Every poll showed most of the educated people voted remain." You replied with some statistics about children who are too young too vote Now you want me to prove there was a correlation; so look at the picture below. Full details on the "yougov" site.

that graph says nothing about literacy, it says something about university education, a point you were previosuly denying. So this discussion has come circle?

[marton]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	Perhaps people advocating this simple-minded argument are revealing themselves to be the stupid ones. No doubt the more educated ones voted for remain. I would suspect it is because the less educated ones are precisely the ones who have economically suffered due to globalisation/immigration compared to educated ones who have benefited the most. So if everyone simply votes on the basis of self-interest, you would expect this split. It would be interesting to see whether if you adjusted for this income/class disparity whether there remains a bias. Also the EU has effectively 'bought-off' the science vote since so much science funding goes via the EU. So I would expect a disproportionate Remain vote from those in research which presumably also correlates to higher education levels.

"I would suspect it is because the less educated ones are precisely the ones who have economically suffered due to globalisation/immigration compared to educated ones who have benefited the most." Indeed, however I doubt Brexit will improve the situation for "the less educated ones"; I hope for them it will.

More likely their jobs will be replaced by computers or will be deskilled by the use of computers so reducing their income even further, for example, drivers (truck, bus, train, tram, taxi), pilots, language translators, Doctors (diagnosis from symptoms) and more.

[marton]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I don't see any Brexit leaders exercising this dynamism, either, to be honest.

	Quote:	Phos
	They are already on a campaign to line up international trade deals.

No, the Brexit leaders are resigning one by one; none of them are running a campaign.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	marton
	No, the Brexit leaders are resigning one by one; none of them are running a campaign.

Glad you don't consider Gove to be a leader

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	"I would suspect it is because the less educated ones are precisely the ones who have economically suffered due to globalisation/immigration compared to educated ones who have benefited the most." Indeed, however I doubt Brexit will improve the situation for "the less educated ones"; I hope for them it will.

But then surely it is not their illiteracy / stupidity that led them to vote as they did but their perspective and actual situation.

Therefore your criticizing their decison to do so is effectively implying they are stupid for putting their own interests ahead of those of educated rich people?

	Quote:	marton
	More likely their jobs will be replaced by computers or will be deskilled by the use of computers so reducing their income even further, for example, drivers (truck, bus, train, tram, taxi), pilots, language translators, Doctors (diagnosis from symptoms) and more.

But would a remain vote have averted this? I think not.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	Perhaps he means only people who can follow an argument should be allowed to vote. Makes sense to me.

I always felt only net tax payers (after benefits) should vote, preferably only ones paying the higher rate, then it's people contributing to the system regardless of education. Plenty of billionaires don't have degrees.

[dodgyken]

Annoyingly gender analysis shows that both Men and Women voted 48/52 - meaning we are going to miss out on Marton cutting another group from the voting population.


Voting is overrated - stick to a dictatorship they are far more productive.

[amogles]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I always felt only net tax payers (after benefits) should vote, preferably only ones paying the higher rate, then it's people contributing to the system regardless of education. Plenty of billionaires don't have degrees.

I very much believe in the "one man one vote" philosophy myself.

As long as that one man is mself

signed

Havelock Vetinari.

	Quote:	marton
	No, the Brexit leaders are resigning one by one; none of them are running a campaign.

Breaking away from the EU has been in the DNA of the Conservative party from the beginning. Its not something B.Johnson nor Gove invented. It is fundamental to conservative outlook. They only made use of it to advance their careers. They might actually even believe in it.

Its good for those personalities to stand down so the country can face its new reality.

As long as the UK plays its cards right, there should be no disruption in regards to the US. Republicans are already pointing out that the UK will not be sent to the back of the queue. Furthermore, you will likely see increased activity from Asia; e.g., India, South Korea, Japan and even China. Relationships with Commonwealth countries should remain intact.

Or the government can take the Remain perspective, in which case, the UK would have cluster'f'ed itself. At this point, I think this is what remainers are still trying to sell, no?