The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Castro
	A decent speech by David Davis, former Minister of State for Europe. How does this work?

Whether you are pro or anti-brexit, it's refreshing to see an optimistic and positive view of britain.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Castro
	A decent speech by David Davis, former Minister of State for Europe. How does this work?

I LOVED that speech, and it's so damn true. It was only a short time ago we had no EU as we know it and we were strong and florushing, why are we being scare-mongered into feeling like EU dependants?

[Medea Fleecestealer]

France trying to scaremonger over the migrant crisis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-35712463

I loved the explanation of the Treaty at the bottom of the article.

"The 'Treaty of Le Touquet' is an agreement between France and the UK that has been in place since 2003 and governs border control arrangements and immigration.

The treaty ensures that immigration checks are carried out before passengers embark on cross-Channel services.

French border police have immigration checkpoints at Dover, while the UK has immigration checkpoints at Calais and Dunkirk. But at Calais and Dunkirk, passengers also go through French exit checks, as well as UK immigration entry checks."

In all the years since the Treaty has been in place I think we've seen the French border control in Calais manned twice and never in the UK. In Calais they've never looked at our passports, just waved us through.

It may get more difficult, but ferry companies also check passports against their booking info so as far as I can see, migrants would have to book a ferry, present their passports which should have the correct entry visa to allow them into the UK before they'd be allowed to board the ship. Ooops, that's right. They don't have the proper passports/entry visas do they? Back to the Jungle you go.

	Quote:	Castro
	A decent speech by David Davis, former Minister of State for Europe.

Always rated Davis, was never afraid to go with his convictions, even if it went against his party. Excellent speech.

[lewton]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	France trying to scaremonger over the migrant crisis.

Why is that scaremongering?

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Castro
	A decent speech by David Davis, former Minister of State for Europe.

I blame you for the fact that I ended up watching all the speeches instead of going to bed early last night.

[Castro]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Always rated Davis, was never afraid to go with his convictions, even if it went against his party. Excellent speech.

What is so interesting about Brexit for me is that its creating very strange bedfellows e.g. Galloway and Farage, Cameron and Corbyn etc.. FWIW I thought I was pretty pro-EU but hearing these debates I am starting to waiver. Just like Davis I don't like threats and I certainly don't like that Goldman Sachs is bankrolling the 'In' campaign along with significant donations from JPMorgan, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America and others. Its obvious that being in the EU is good for big business, but thats not necessarily what is best for the British people.

I'm still on the fence, but I would like to see higher quality arguments from the 'Better together' crowd.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	lewton
	Why is that scaremongering?

Do you really see the French tearing down the security fencing and forbidding private security firms from operating at the ports as they do now? Or the French doing passport/security checks themselves? Too lazy to bother.

If the UK leaves and I were PM I'd have a fleet of fast boats to simply take any illegal migrants who did make it across back to France. That's where they are, the EU rules say they should register in the country they're in and we won't be part of that agreement anymore so not our problem.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Do you really see the French tearing down the security fencing and forbidding private security firms from operating at the ports as they do now? Or the French doing passport/security checks themselves? Too lazy to bother. If the UK leaves and I were PM I'd have a fleet of fast boats to simply take any illegal migrants who did make it across back to France. That's where they are, the EU rules say they should register in the country they're in and we won't be part of that agreement anymore so not our problem.

I presume the companies themselves would want to check to avoid the situation that they have to carry a passenger back.

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Do you really see the French tearing down the security fencing and forbidding private security firms from operating at the ports as they do now? Or the French doing passport/security checks themselves? Too lazy to bother. If the UK leaves and I were PM I'd have a fleet of fast boats to simply take any illegal migrants who did make it across back to France. That's where they are, the EU rules say they should register in the country they're in and we won't be part of that agreement anymore so not our problem.

France are just bluffing, there's no way they'd simply let the migrants charge onto the tracks the moment the Brexit takes place.

	Quote:	Castro
	What is so interesting about Brexit for me is that its creating very strange bedfellows e.g. Galloway and Farage, Cameron and Corbyn etc.. FWIW I thought I was pretty pro-EU but hearing these debates I am starting to waiver. Just like Davis I don't like threats and I certainly don't like that Goldman Sachs is bankrolling the 'In' campaign along with significant donations from JPMorgan, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America and others. Its obvious that being in the EU is good for big business, but thats not necessarily what is best for the British people. I'm still on the fence, but I would like to see higher quality arguments from the 'Better together' crowd.

Those strange bedfellows may well lose this referendum for Brexit. At the moment I'm thinking it'll be a close run thing but Bremain will scrape through with a win. It'll be close enough to make sure the argument doesn't go away.

For me the economic outcome of Brexit is far down the list of priorities. Number one, has to be how undemocratic the EU is. This alone is reason enough to leave.

[Castro]

For the sake of balance - A recent Oxford Union Debate on the motion

This House Believes Britain and the EU are Better Together

For

How does this work?

How does this work?

Against

How does this work?

How does this work?

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Those strange bedfellows may well lose this referendum for Brexit. At the moment I'm thinking it'll be a close run thing but Bremain will scrape through with a win.

I think it will most likely be with bremain as fear and resistance to change are strong motivators... unless the brexit side manage to fire up more voters to actually go cast their vote.

[Kosti]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Do you really see the French tearing down the security fencing and forbidding private security firms from operating at the ports as they do now? Or the French doing passport/security checks themselves? Too lazy to bother. If the UK leaves and I were PM I'd have a fleet of fast boats to simply take any illegal migrants who did make it across back to France. That's where they are, the EU rules say they should register in the country they're in and we won't be part of that agreement anymore so not our problem.

Yep, Thats exactly what the French would say after Brexit, but not what you think.

"You`re not part of the EU agreements, so now anyone who manages to reach the UK remains the UK`s problem"
The anti-immigration crowd thats driving Brexit are not being honest about the consequences for immigration. Basically it can only make things worse re. illegal immigrants and asylum abusers.

Fast boats indeed
Unless those fast boats go all the way to Africa or Asia

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	Kosti
	Yep, Thats exactly what the French would say after Brexit, but not what you think. "You`re not part of the EU agreements, so now anyone who manages to reach the UK remains the UK`s problem" The anti-immigration crowd thats driving Brexit are not being honest about the consequences for immigration. Basically it can only make things worse re. illegal immigrants and asylum abusers. Fast boats indeed Unless those fast boats go all the way to Africa or Asia

Wrong. In the same way that Macedonia isn't letting migrants through the UK, as a non-EU country, would be within its rights to send the migrants back where they came from.

[Kosti]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Wrong. In the same way that Macedonia isn't letting migrants through the UK, as a non-EU country, would be within its rights to send the migrants back where they came from.

Apples and oranges, and just illogical.

Macedonia isnt letting them in since they are worried that once let in they will be stuck there, since the EU countries North of Macedonia are under no obligation to take in immigrants from a non-EU country like Macedonia.

Similarly, a EU France would be under zero obligation to take back illegals and asylum abusers from a non-EU UK.

Edit: Macedonia is refusing immigrants wanting to cross FROM Greece, a EU country. So thanks for actually butressing my point that there are no obligations between non EU and EU countries where it comes to illegal immigration or asylum abusers

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	Kosti
	Apples and oranges, and just illogical. Macedonia isnt letting them in since they are worried that once let in they will be stuck there, since the EU countries North of Macedonia are under no obligation to take in immigrants from a non-EU country like Macedonia. Similarly, a EU France would be under zero obligation to take back illegals and asylum abusers from a non-EU UK. Edit: Macedonia is refusing immigrants wanting to cross FROM Greece, a EU country. So thanks for actually butressing my point that there are no obligations between non EU and EU countries where it comes to illegal immigration or asylum abusers

Yes, exactly right. So Britain can ship them back, get as close to shore as possible, send them over the side and let them swim back to France. Which is what the Greeks should have been doing with people coming from Turkey.

I think the French would indeed open the border and lend them boats for free.

[marton]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Yes, exactly right. So Britain can ship them back, get as close to shore as possible, send them over the side and let them swim back to France. Which is what the Greeks should have been doing with people coming from Turkey.

Probably not legal since the UK signed the UN refugee agreements.

Should a refugee drown during this exercise then the UK people would be charged with murder or manslaughter.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	France trying to scaremonger over the migrant crisis. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-35712463 I loved the explanation of the Treaty at the bottom of the article. "The 'Treaty of Le Touquet' is an agreement between France and the UK that has been in place since 2003 and governs border control arrangements and immigration. The treaty ensures that immigration checks are carried out before passengers embark on cross-Channel services. French border police have immigration checkpoints at Dover, while the UK has immigration checkpoints at Calais and Dunkirk. But at Calais and Dunkirk, passengers also go through French exit checks, as well as UK immigration entry checks." In all the years since the Treaty has been in place I think we've seen the French border control in Calais manned twice and never in the UK. In Calais they've never looked at our passports, just waved us through. It may get more difficult, but ferry companies also check passports against their booking info so as far as I can see, migrants would have to book a ferry, present their passports which should have the correct entry visa to allow them into the UK before they'd be allowed to board the ship. Ooops, that's right. They don't have the proper passports/entry visas do they? Back to the Jungle you go.

These stay arguments are getting increasingly ridiculous. It seems that the UK membership of the EU is less like an attempt at creating a single market and more like an abusive relationship where the UK should stay in it for fear of retaliation by its former partners. Stay, or I'll tear down the fences and flood you with immigrants and terrorists. Stay, or we'll block your trade.

You'd think we'd proposed sh!tting on their dining table or f--king their dog from these reactions.

The brexit camp aren't saying no to trade with the EU. They're just saying that the UK will leave the common decision-making of the EU and make decisions for themselves. The rest of the EU can carry on as before and have their common decision-making if they wish.

The EU has signed loads of trade deals with different countries - including Korea. Trade isn't dependent on signing up to to be part of a federal europe.

I get it, fear is a great strategy. But this is not a decision for France, or Germany. It is a decision for the British people, and it is a disservice to come with these ridiculous arguments. I'm sure the 'no' camp has much better and rational arguments why Britain should stay in the EU.

It's a huge decision for the UK and one that voters should make with full information.

Of course the best way to respond to this latest "threat" would be to remind Macron that the reason the migrants want to go to the UK is that they can't bear the thought of living in France with the French.