The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

	Quote:	Chuff
	The problem is, regardless of the reasons and demographics behind the outcome, it was about as democratic as the UK gets. Thus to block this result, though it isn't "legally binding", is to block the will of the people and therefore political suicide. It would lead to worse civil unrest than the current state of things, of that there can be little doubt. If the Remain side had won and the Leave side wanted to do the dame thing, we would be instantly villifying them as unwashed and undemocratic troglodytes. But because the Remain camp consider themselves as infinitely more highly educated, more politically enlightened, and more culturally enriched etc etc... then toys are being wilfully thrown out of the pram. It is hypocrasy at its finest, because if the shoe was on the other foot we all know, you and Odile included, that you would brook no chance of overturning the result. It is something that people are going to have to deal with and I am reasonable sure that the outcome is going to lead to a more sensible and democratic EU as opposed to its autocratic, undemocratic current state. We are already seeing the effects, with Sepp Juncker being asked to leave very quickly following their ridiculous reactions to the referendum. Herr Schulz will soon be out too. People just need to get the **** over it and start thinking what we can do as a country in the long-term once the initial stability has subsided, instead of dwelling in this sea of incessant self-pity while wailing about the evils of, umm, democracy.

" the outcome is going to lead to a more sensible and democratic EU " So what? UK will no longer be a member?
Or do you expect Brexit to be overturned

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	CETA machinations: http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy...ails-analysis/ leaving aside whether this agreement is good or bad, the tactic of provisional implementation ahead of member state ratification is an interesting one.

Provisional implementation makes the member ratification meaningless. Might just as well leave that out.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	marton
	Indeed, plus when exported articles contain imported raw materials then the impact of devaluation on export prices is reduced.

It depends on the nature of the exports. e.g. whether it contains imported materials, or materials that can be substituted by UK produced materials, or no materials at all (e.g. services).

All else being equal, it will push to favour UK suppliers and substitution of imports for local materials/production and boost the service economy.

Of course, it comes at a price since the earnings will not be as valuable when buying overseas products.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Provisional implementation makes the member ratification meaningless. Might just as well leave that out.

That's the genius of it. The EU can basically hand over a poison pill and give the member states a meaningless ratification process to appease local demands for democratic oversight while binding them anyway on the most objectionable provisions that are causing the uproar in certain countries.

You might not like it, but you can appreciate the Machiavellian cleverness. Maybe this will be EU 2.0 ?

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	That's the genius of it. The EU can basically hand over a poison pill and give the member states a meaningless ratification process to appease local demands for democratic oversight while binding them anyway on the most objectionable provisions that are causing the uproar in certain countries. You might not like it, but you can appreciate the Machiavellian cleverness. Maybe this will be EU 2.0 ?

If Juncker thinks that this won't be seen thru he's just plain stupid, not clever. If anything it may fuel anger even more because people feel taken for a fool.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	If Juncker thinks that this won't be seen thru he's just plain stupid, not clever. If anything it may fuel anger even more because people feel taken for a fool.

Nah, you'll just have people saying that it was voted for and that will be the end of that. Even on EF you have people saying that we voted to join the EU when it was an after the fact vote.

[Odile]

Sometimes it is best not to respond to attacks.

However, 48% of the voters, + all those who have since realised it was a big mistake, + all those who now realise they should have voted- can't all be wrong- and yes, you are right, most of them are a lot younger than me.

	Quote:	Odile
	... and those who voted leave from the comfort of their Swiss mountains find it oh so ... what? Satisfied? Of course your high Swiss salary will be worth more when you go back home to boast to your family and friends- and buy your clothes and Branston to bring home. Ah how cosy and sweet it will feel- and smug too.

	Quote:	Odile
	Sometimes it is best not to respond to attacks.

'nuff said.

[Odile]

In the meantime- a look at 'ook' from afar:

https://www.facebook.com/Grintagious...0989042953576/

[MusicChick]

Guys, this thread is a quality debate, please, keep it that way, everybody. I have a feeling it is becoming a really good info source for a lot of non-members, lurkers, locals, etc.

If somebody feels that their arguments aren't strong enough and stoop down to personal jabs, please take it elsewhere. Thanks!

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	Odile
	Sometimes it is best not to respond to attacks. However, 48% of the voters, + all those who have since realised it was a big mistake, + all those who now realise they should have voted- can't all be wrong- and yes, you are right, most of them are a lot younger than me.

why can't they all be wrong?

but you are barking up the wrong tree. it is about choice and majority decision.

the 64% that didn't vote for the conservatives also have to live with the the conservative government.

while the vote isn't 100% for one choice, you will always have some portion of people who don't get what they want.

it's still early days. let's see what happens. maybe many remainers will be happy with the way forward once that way forward becomes known.

[dodgyken]

	Quote:	Odile
	Sometimes it is best not to respond to attacks. However, 48% of the voters, + all those who have since realised it was a big mistake, + all those who now realise they should have voted- can't all be wrong- and yes, you are right, most of them are a lot younger than me.

At the time of the vote those who voted did so based on the information they had to hand and formulated there own decision. You can't add people changing their minds - that's no how it works. Are you seriously saying you don't know how democracy works?

A reminder to remain voters: YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	marton
	" the outcome is going to lead to a more sensible and democratic EU " So what? UK will no longer be a member? Or do you expect Brexit to be overturned

marton, use your grey matter. The UK will continue to have a relationship with the EU, we may join the single market, will have ongoing political ties, and in future there is a good chance that one day, decades hence, we may even re-join it. Reform is in everyone's interests.

	Quote:	Odile
	... and those who voted leave from the comfort of their Swiss mountains find it oh so ... what? Satisfied? Of course your high Swiss salary will be worth more when you go back home to boast to your family and friends- and buy your clothes and Branston to bring home. Ah how cosy and sweet it will feel- and smug too.

Ahh Odile, you really are pushing this broken record aren't you? The sentiments in your posts quite frankly arrogant, condescending and ironically (given you are a venerable member) immature. Simply, they are not nice and clearly reflect on your way of looking at people who don't think the same as you do.

PS: I didn't vote, I just have the ability to objectively analyze situations. This is something you (and marton) appear to be having difficulties with.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	marton
	" the outcome is going to lead to a more sensible and democratic EU " So what? UK will no longer be a member?

It will be better for everybody in the EU (assuming it still continues to exist).

I think there's almost universal agreement that the EU as-is was not satisfactory and reform was required.

And almost universal agreement that reform was never going to happen without a triggering event.

The Brexit vote was that event. It remains to be seen whether it is enough to provoke real change that addresses the concerns of many Europeans, or in fact, whether it will be seized upon to push forward more federalism.

I already said before that a Brexit could be better for the EU than for the UK.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Just as well then that it is the people of France, Denmark and Ireland that will have final say on anything other than EEA membership or WTO rules. The challenge of getting three countries to vote the same way at the same time will be interesting - the Danes and the French will want to avoid referenda at all costs in case in furthers the idea of more exits .

There are two ways of seeing this.

If the EU wins a refererndum, anywhere, in any country, it could bolster their claim that the UK is an exception and that the EU is actually backed democratically.

But to win that bonus, they would have to roll the dice and take the test - which could just as well backfire.

Not wanting to take that test could be interpreted as evidence that they have something to hide and something to fear. And expect the Eurosceptic parties of Europe to hammer this message home in the months ahead.

Oh, and Luxumbourg doesn't count. It would have to be a big country.

[dodgyken]

I'd take it a step further - if any country has a referendum about membership before the UK officially leaves then it would add wood to the fire. Especially if a small country that benefits directly from EU finances

	Quote:	Odile
	... and those who voted leave from the comfort of their Swiss mountains find it oh so ... what? Satisfied? Of course your high Swiss salary will be worth more when you go back home to boast to your family and friends- and buy your clothes and Branston to bring home. Ah how cosy and sweet it will feel- and smug too.

I live in Switzerland but earn my income in GBP. The exchange rate right now is very painful.

[Phil_MCR]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	I'd take it a step further - if any country has a referendum about membership before the UK officially leaves then it would add wood to the fire. Especially if a small country that benefits directly from EU finances

It could happen with a few countries, including France or Netherlands. I secretly hope so. It would be quite interesting...

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Odile
	Sometimes it is best not to respond to attacks. However, 48% of the voters, + all those who have since realised it was a big mistake, + all those who now realise they should have voted- can't all be wrong- and yes, you are right, most of them are a lot younger than me.

What makes you think none of the 48% have changed their minds after the event? More people voted leave in the UK than have ever voted for something at any point in history in the UK.

Pretty sure if there was a fresh referendum then leave would get an even higher percentage, people don't like it when the principle of democracy is belittled by the losers.

[dodgyken]

If you tell people enough times not to do something the first things they'll do when given the chance is do it.

It is the "smoking teenager" effect.