The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[amogles]

	Quote:
	In the UK a referendum is advisory only- you've been living in Switzerland for too long.

To be totally strict, a general election is also advisory only. The Queen gets to pick then prime minister and she can technically ignore the advisory vote of the people. But things might look pretty grim if she tried.

	Quote:
	And the past- indeed that is the whole point. Who wants to go back to the past- Rule Britannia, wars in Europe, and divided and separate solutions for problems without borders,

If you want to be totally philosophical on this one, the Rule Britannia is in fact a declaration of a world without borders. There are no fences or walls in the middle of the sea. There is maritime and admiralty law etc. Empire building should be a thing of the past. The EU is a modern day empire.

Talking about the past- just been looking at some of the threads about the SVP/UDC campaigns and politics- and it is exactly the same few who are the supporters and apologists. No surprise there.

Kosti, excellent post. I agree.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Kosti
	The UK will ask to stay in the EEA, with a deal being made for the City to keep passporting, in return for "accepting" free movement, with some caveats like delayed entry for new EU member country citizens into the UK labour market.

And that would require three referenda.... good luck with that.

[Chuff]

	Quote:
	Talking about the past- just been looking at some of the threads about the SVP/UDC campaigns and politics- and it is exactly the same few who are the supporters and apologists. No surprise there.

Wow, the more you post in this thread, the more your petty and judgemental character shines through towards people with different political views. You cannot handle a rational debate where your emotions run even slightly high.

Guess it's time to use that ignore feature again, your posts are consistently lacking in sensibility and content worth reading.

	Quote:	Chuff
	Wow, the more you post in this thread, the more your petty and judgemental character shines through. You cannot handle a rational debate where your emotions run even slightly high. Guess it's time to use that ignore feature again, your posts are consistently lacking in sensibility and content worth reading.

Good idea. Welcome to mine.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Chuff
	Guess it's time to use that ignore feature again, your posts are consistently lacking in sensibility and content worth reading.

She'll be devastated...

[Faltrad]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Guys, this thread is a quality debate, please, keep it that way, everybody. I have a feeling it is becoming a really good info source for a lot of non-members, lurkers, locals, etc. If somebody feels that their arguments aren't strong enough and stoop down to personal jabs, please take it elsewhere. Thanks!

Best message of the thread.

I am

Did you watch QT last night- Ian Hislop said it so well. When a party wins the elections, does the opposition stop fighting and say 'oh you won- we'll all lye down here until it's over?' - and is it really totally wrong to expect promises which heavily swayed the public to be kept?

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	To be totally strict, a general election is also advisory only. The Queen gets to pick then prime minister and she can technically ignore the advisory vote of the people. But things might look pretty grim if she tried. If you want to be totally philosophical on this one, the Rule Britannia is in fact a declaration of a world without borders. There are no fences or walls in the middle of the sea. There is maritime and admiralty law etc. Empire building should be a thing of the past. The EU is a modern day empire.

"The Queen gets to pick then prime minister and she can technically ignore the advisory vote of the people." The people do not get to propose and vote for a PM? This is not like the US where they vote for the President.

[marton]

	Quote:	Chuff
	The problem is, regardless of the reasons and demographics behind the outcome, it was about as democratic as the UK gets. Thus to block this result, though it isn't "legally binding", is to block the will of the people and therefore political suicide. It would lead to worse civil unrest than the current state of things, of that there can be little doubt. If the Remain side had won and the Leave side wanted to do the dame thing, we would be instantly villifying them as unwashed and undemocratic troglodytes. But because the Remain camp consider themselves as infinitely more highly educated, more politically enlightened, and more culturally enriched etc etc... then toys are being wilfully thrown out of the pram. It is hypocrasy at its finest, because if the shoe was on the other foot we all know, you and Odile included, that you would brook no chance of overturning the result. It is something that people are going to have to deal with and I am reasonable sure that the outcome is going to lead to a more sensible and democratic EU as opposed to its autocratic, undemocratic current state. We are already seeing the effects, with Sepp Juncker being asked to leave very quickly following their ridiculous reactions to the referendum. Herr Schulz will soon be out too. Germany and France both see what a pickle they have got themselves into, that they now risk losing everything they worked so hard to build. Also how avoidable it was. People just need to get the **** over it and start thinking what we can do as a country in the long-term once the initial stability has subsided, instead of dwelling in this sea of incessant self-pity while wailing about the evils of, umm, democracy.

" a more sensible and democratic EU" People keep repeating this phrase like monks repeating Gregorian chants but what does it exactly mean?
What is the expectation?
How is a a more sensible and democratic EU defined? How will we know when we have got there?

Nobody ever gets specific; until they do it is just a propaganda phrase!

	Quote:
	Did you watch QT last night- Ian Hislop said it so well. When a party wins the elections, does the opposition stop fighting and say 'oh you won- we'll all lye down here until it's over?' - and is it really totally wrong to expect promises which heavily swayed the public to be kept?

I don't get this argument about the Leave leaders doing a runner now that the Referendum is won.

Boris wanted to be PM, but got stabbed in the back by Gove.
Gove wanted to be PM, but the Tories didn't want him.
Farage is from UKIP, so has no chance of being PM with the current electoral system.

[marton]

	Quote:
	Perhaps those who are now saying they are regreting voting leave- and would tip the 48/52 t'other way round: Re. Brexit. Survation survey just out shows, amongst other things, that 7.1% of Leave voters regret voting Leave. On my calculations, that would switch the 52/48 Leave result to 52/48 Remain. Full details here: http://survation.com/…/Final-MoS-Pos...ables-240616S…

"7.1% of Leave voters regret voting Leave" Seems to be supported by the gfk Consumer confidence survey out today.

Quote" The results show that confidence has dived, with the core Index falling 8 points to-9, and that all of the key measures used to calculate the Index have fallen.
For context, this long-running survey dates back to 1974, and there has not been a sharper drop than this for 21 years (December 1994)."

The reason I say this supports "regret voting Leave" is that people who voted Leave in the North now have customer confidence of -19%!

Full details here;

Source

https://www.facebook.com/BBCQuestion...7297430283979/

bravo, Ian, couldn't have said it better.

The referendum had a basic question with two possible answers. Along the way, all kinds of points were debated, many of which were suppositions, propositions, with pro and con points. Anybody can bring up any topic they want during the debate. They can debate from Juncker's glasses to the color of the flags. But the course of the debate does not get included in the simple text of the referendum.

So:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
___Remain a member of the European Union
___Leave the European Union


That is ALL. Nothing about immigration, NHS, EU citizenship, social welfare, Boris, Gove, Nada! Those are dealt with in the course of implementing the referendum if and when they are possible to be dealt with. But the referendum still stands without any of these.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	marton
	"7.1% of Leave voters regret voting Leave" Seems to be supported by the gfk Consumer confidence survey out today. Quote" The results show that confidence has dived, with the core Index falling 8 points to-9, and that all of the key measures used to calculate the Index have fallen. For context, this long-running survey dates back to 1974, and there has not been a sharper drop than this for 21 years (December 1994)." The reason I say this supports "regret voting Leave" is that people who voted Leave in the North now have customer confidence of -19%! Full details here; Source

It corresponds with what Kosti wrote earlier, his predictions and pretty realistic summary.

People are smart when not pushed..Last minute, pre-election populistic push through media should always be looked at, critically...Who will benefit the most? Why the frantic efforts and why the extremes?

Arguing here wheather voters voted intelligently, by voting to leave or by realizing and owning up to a giant brainfart, is a moot. I think Remain campaigners couldn't have done better campaign actually. To get rid of the allure of populism takes enormous amount of work for years, it is not something you can fix by a couple of TV interviews or a few flyers you distribute right before the elections. This is something that is better approached by cooperation of multiple states, too. Expose the interests, media ownership, ets.

Europe needs to boost its anti-populistic effort, whether the states are in or out of the EU, doesn't matter. Sociologists, with philo/econo/finance analysts, edu policies makers will have a lot of work. I think the problem isn't just the increasing gap between social strata and fair chances for decent life.

Sometimes the best strategy for populism to be exposed is to have it win...until the voters realize. And until the leaders realize what a monster it can become.

Governments are reassessing their investments in edu, info access for all, and how serious the attractivity of populism is. Ultimately, my opinion is - power is not really about cash and wealth. Power is primarily about info access. Wealth comes later.

Another thing is - we are trying to assess here the voters' motives..the interesting part is, most people who participate in this debate, left the UK. Didn't stay to improve situation there. The arguments supported by patriotic sentiments, national identity, autonomy and independence, sovereignity - feel a bit disingenuous coming from so many who deserted. I am not acusing anyone..just a thought I sometimes have myself when watching the political mess back home. Populism is there as anywhere, Slovakia seems to fall for it these days, the Eurosceptic views will serve again to a couple of clever polititians, not caring for improving situations of voters but to simply gain control and power. I wouldn't use those tendencies as a proof the the EU is a bad idea.

Hope my EU English hasn't pushed anyone out of their safe space. I am glad we have pretty different opinions here, and mostly decently delivered. Those, who in the name of democracy/free speech continue to discredit or shut up other posters, please - rethink your strategies, don't populisticly take readers for sheeple. Different opinions here bring quality and democracy. Patience to explain and share here is fab.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	It corresponds with what Kosti wrote earlier, his predictions and pretty realistic summary. People are smart when not pushed..Last minute, pre-election populistic push through media should always be looked at, critically...Who will benefit the most? Why the frantic efforts and why the extremes? Arguing here wheather voters voted intelligently, by voting to leave or by realizing and owning up to a giant brainfart, is a moot. I think Remain campaigners couldn't have done better campaign actually. To get rid of the allure of populism takes enormous amount of work for years, it is not something you can fix by a couple of TV interviews or a few flyers you distribute right before the elections. This is something that is better approached by cooperation of multiple states, too. Expose the interests, media ownership, ets. Europe needs to boost its anti-populistic effort, whether the states are in or out of the EU, doesn't matter. Sociologists, with philo/econo/finance analysts, edu policies makers will have a lot of work. I think the problem isn't just the increasing gap between social strata and fair chances for decent life. Sometimes the best straregy for populism to be exposed is to have it win...until the voters realize. And until the leaders realize what a monster it can become. Governments are reassessing their investments in edu, info access for all, and how serious the attractivity of populism is. Ultimately, my opinion is - power is not really about cash and wealth. Power is primarily about info access. Wealth comes later. Another thing is - we are trying to assess here the voters' motives..the interesting part is, most people who participate in this debate, left the UK. Didn't stay to improve situation there. The arguments supported by patrioric sentiments, national identity, autonomy and independence, sovereignity - feel a bit disingenuous coming from so many who deserted. I am not acusing anyone..just a thought I sometimes have myself when watching the political mess back home. Populism is there as anywhere, Slovakia seems to fall for it these days, the Eurosceptic views will serve again to a couple of clever polititians, not caring for improving situations of voters but to simply gain control and power. I wouldn't use those tendencies as a proof the the EU is a bad idea. Hope my EU English hasn't pushed anyone out of their safe space. I am glad we have pretty different opinions here, and mostly decently delivered. Those, who in the name of democracy/free speech continue to discredit or shut up other posters, please - rethink your strategies, don't populisticly take readers for sheeple. Different opinions here bring quality and democracy. Patience to explain and share here is fab.

What is your problem with populism?

[amogles]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	What is your problem with populism?

Just imagine if politicians started doing what people demand.

That would be like, uh, democracy.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Europe needs to boost its anti-populistic effort, whether the states are in or out of the EU, doesn't matter. Sociologists, with philo/econo/finance analysts, edu policies makers will have a lot of work.

Can I hear strains of "Die Partei hat immer recht" playing in the background?

	Quote:	amogles
	Just imagine if politicians started doing what people demand. That would be like, uh, democracy. Can I hear strains of "Die Partei hat immer recht" playing in the background?

Just imagine if politicians started doing what people really NEED rather than what they are brainwashed into demanding or believing they need by various pressure groups or just by blind prejudice.

[dodgyken]

Marton - please learn how to selective quote - your posts are more annoying than guardian article linking remain voters.

Some people just have a thwarted idea of what "populism" means. Realising this, Obama recently proclaimed, "Trump is not a populist, I am", claiming he listens to people, and Trump doesn't.

The use of the word Populism when detractors refer to Democracy is a quick path to getting discredited, and wears out the essence of the word.

The pejorative use of the word Populism is not even about getting the opinions of the majority. Its about inciting a mass of people for a political agenda through emotional appeal. According to this meaning of the word, do an honest assessment which of the sides is invoking pejorative "populism", the Remain or the Leave side?

Stop misusing and wearing out that word. It's getting cornier by the minute. It is pseudo intellectual blah blah.

The word you want is "Demagoguery".