The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[MusicChick]

	Quote:
	Just imagine if politicians started doing what people really NEED rather than what they are brainwashed into demanding or believing they need by various pressure groups or just by blind prejudice.

Yep.

Populism is well defined, it is supposed to represent people's ideas, of course. It gives wonderfully quick-fix answers to all - we have had that pointed out a few dozens pages before. Do people honestly think problems get fixed by pushing Poles out of the UK? The principle is so simple. I am not usually so big on the New Yorker, but the following article is interesting, and - it is not new.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20.../the-populists.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Just imagine if politicians started doing what people really NEED rather than what they are brainwashed into demanding or believing they need by various pressure groups or just by blind prejudice.

You mean we can replace democracy by groups of experts who know more about what is good for the people than the people themselves? As in a dictatorship?

Why is there still mileage to be got out of hating Leave voters? Respect, eh? Ease up.. objective thinking goes a lot further than the leave voters got it wrong, regret etc. Ian Hislop doing a daily mail rant for TV - think he has confused which show he is on. I am here on the ground in the UK, kids in school here.. many of the educated middle class NO voters I have spoken to since do not regret it. My neighbour refers to Brexit as a gardening exercise: cutting some good away with the bad, to allow positive re growth in more flexible and nourishing ground. The no vote for many here is a vote of hope.

All the positives of the EU will not stay in place if we continue along the democratic deficit road we're on. The Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) with Canada could well signal the end of the excellent precautionary principle that the EU has in place. I am in total agreement with Medicine without frontiers sticking their two fingers up to the EU in protest at the inhumane Greek camps and dodgy Turkey deal. And hasn't Greece suffered enough without their tourist industry taking a nose dive.. poor management by an unelected power house is quite scary and is not what anyone one wants.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	amogles
	You mean we can replace democracy by groups of experts who know more about what is good for the people than the people themselves? As in a dictatorship?

or a monarchy

	Quote:	amogles
	You mean we can replace democracy by groups of experts who know more about what is good for the people than the people themselves? As in a dictatorship?

What I am hearing is their view of the world, that the problem is a matter of perception, that can be corrected by attacking those who lead the perception. It concedes their perception of how the structure of power exists and should remain - "follow our dear leaders mindlessly". That is an insidious concept of "education".

I'm quite grateful for the UK's Libertarian streak. Most of the other Europeans seem to have very little inkling of it.

For this, I would credit Adam Smith, John Locke, David Hume, John Stuart Mill amongst others. Which leads me to believe that Austria, having produced Friedrich Hayek, may very well be the next one to bite the dust.

[marton]

	Quote:	dodgyken
	Marton - please learn how to selective quote - your posts are more annoying than guardian article linking remain voters.

I have to link to the Guardian which is free; I assume most EFers cannot afford the paid newspapers

[marton]

	Quote:	Swisstree
	Why is there still mileage to be got out of hating Leave voters? Respect, eh? Ease up.. objective thinking goes a lot further than the leave voters got it wrong, regret etc. Ian Hislop doing a daily mail rant for TV - think he has confused which show he is on. I am here on the ground in the UK, kids in school here.. many of the educated middle class NO voters I have spoken to since do not regret it. My neighbour refers to Brexit as a gardening exercise: cutting some good away with the bad, to allow positive re growth in more flexible and nourishing ground. The no vote for many here is a vote of hope. All the positives of the EU will not stay in place if we continue along the democratic deficit road we're on. The Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) with Canada could well signal the end of the excellent precautionary principle that the EU has in place. I am in total agreement with Medicine without frontiers sticking their two fingers up to the EU in protest at the inhumane Greek camps and dodgy Turkey deal. And hasn't Greece suffered enough without their tourist industry taking a nose dive.. poor management by an unelected power house is quite scary and is not what anyone one wants.

"And hasn't Greece suffered enough without their tourist industry taking a nose dive.. poor management by an unelected power house is quite scary and is not what anyone one wants"

Now you are blaming the EU for immigrant problem, not Merkel! How do you work that out?

It is exactly this sort of unjustified criticism of of the EU that has got us into this mess!

"unelected power house" Still repeating the old Leave campaign lies?

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	What I am hearing is their view of the world, that the problem is a matter of perception, that can be corrected by attacking those who lead the perception. It concedes their perception of how the structure of power exists and should remain - "follow our dear leaders mindlessly". That is an insidious concept of "education". I'm quite grateful for the UK's Libertarian streak. Most of the other Europeans seem to have very little inkling of it. For this, I would credit Adam Smith, John Locke, David Hume, John Stuart Mill amongst others. Which leads me to believe that Austria, having produced Friedrich Hayek, may very well be the next one to bite the dust.

"Most of the other Europeans seem to have very little inkling of it." Europeans do not believe in free will? Where did you get that from? Source?

	Quote:	marton
	"And hasn't Greece suffered enough without their tourist industry taking a nose dive.. poor management by an unelected power house is quite scary and is not what anyone one wants" Now you are blaming the EU for immigrant problem, not Merkel! How do you work that out? It is exactly this sort of unjustified criticism of of the EU that has got us into this mess!

A good example. Greece and the southern countries could have already made a lot of progress with its problem had it the sovereignty to devalue its currency. Instead, their problems are now endemic because of the EU.

	Quote:	marton
	I have to link to the Guardian which is free; I assume most EFers cannot afford the paid newspapers

Ha! It's trying to decide which ones to pay for when they're all lacking

Sod's law the Guardian is the one that is free, as atm it continues to be full of melancholy.. 'tis the Mrs Bennet of the papers/media

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	A good example. Greece and the southern countries could have already made a lot of progress with its problem had it the sovereignty to devalue its currency. Instead, their problems are now endemic because of the EU.

Greece created its own problems by using its EU/euro membership to borrow huge amounts of money at low rates and then failed to use the money to improve the country.

There you go, this is the way:
Sajid Javid starts post-Brexit trade talks with India

Who can afford the luxury of gloom and doom? Do the Hustle!

[Kosti]

	Quote:	amogles
	Just imagine if politicians started doing what people demand. That would be like, uh, democracy. Can I hear strains of "Die Partei hat immer recht" playing in the background?

As recently as 1991, the Swiss Federal court forced, FORCED I say, the good people of Appenzell Innerrhoden to give women the vote, despite their politicians refusing to do so, who were just following the "popular" democratic will of the good ol' Appenzellers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appenz...o_vote.2C_1991

The Swiss Confederation, what an undemocratic sh*tshow!

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	There you go, this is the way: Sajid Javid starts post-Brexit trade talks with India Who can afford the luxury of gloom and doom? Do the Hustle!

From the link "The EU has trade agreements with 52 countries and it is expected the UK will need to re-negotiate these as part of Brexit. "

"To help redraw those trade relationships, the UK government this week announced plans for a new team of up to 300 specialist staff, including trade negotiators, by the end of the year.
However, Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond admitted on Thursday the UK would rely on "friendly governments" to help bolster its staff."

Oh good, so instead of the EU negotiating for us we will have negotiators from "friendly governments"; sounds like a huge improvement.

The arrogance of the man. Have they not learned anything?

To all our opponents, from within and outside: There will be no sequel to #Brexit

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The arrogance of the man. Have they not learned anything? To all our opponents, from within and outside: There will be no sequel to #Brexit

Bah! They say all kinds of things all the time with a very low signal to noise ration.

	Quote:	marton
	From the link "The EU has trade agreements with 52 countries and it is expected the UK will need to re-negotiate these as part of Brexit. " ... Oh good, so instead of the EU negotiating for us we will have negotiators from "friendly governments"; sounds like a huge improvement.

Maybe a good time to publish FTA boiler template software. FTAWorks 1.0.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Phos
	What I am hearing is their view of the world, that the problem is a matter of perception, that can be corrected by attacking those who lead the perception. It concedes their perception of how the structure of power exists and should remain - "follow our dear leaders mindlessly". That is an insidious concept of "education". I'm quite grateful for the UK's Libertarian streak. Most of the other Europeans seem to have very little inkling of it. For this, I would credit Adam Smith, John Locke, David Hume, John Stuart Mill amongst others. Which leads me to believe that Austria, having produced Friedrich Hayek, may very well be the next one to bite the dust.

You'd be surprised at the number of people I talk to in Germany but also other countries who tell me that the anglo interpretation of Libertarianism is far preferable to their own neo-Napoleonistic political philosophy. I'm seeing people debate these topics in a way I didn't see even 5 years ago. Maybe it isn't gaining much traction in the mainstream just yet but its simmering under the surafce and the increasing authoritarianism is just pushing more and more people into that camp.

Much of this actually suppressed. I know a guy who flew the Gadsden flag in his garden and had to take it down after receiving ugly threats from Antefa thugs.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	marton
	From the link "The EU has trade agreements with 52 countries and it is expected the UK will need to re-negotiate these as part of Brexit. " "To help redraw those trade relationships, the UK government this week announced plans for a new team of up to 300 specialist staff, including trade negotiators, by the end of the year. However, Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond admitted on Thursday the UK would rely on "friendly governments" to help bolster its staff." Oh good, so instead of the EU negotiating for us we will have negotiators from "friendly governments"; sounds like a huge improvement.

You mean - hurray for less bureaucracy? Because the EU is apparently such a bureaucratic moloch.

I can see the positives and flexibility of small contracts, but do not think those agreements are going to be less bureaucratic, cheaper, faster or more advantageous for the UK.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Phos
	A good example. Greece and the southern countries could have already made a lot of progress with its problem had it the sovereignty to devalue its currency.

Of for heavens sake, currency has very little to do with the Greek problem! If the had been using monopoly money they'd sill be in the same mess. And if control of one's currency was such a great tool how come the UK has been unable to improve it's negative trade balance for over the last 25 years.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	You mean - hurray for less bureaucracy? Because the EU is apparently such a bureaucratic moloch.

Actually this is yet another piece of anti-EU propaganda that always gets me. For comparison...:
EU total number of employees - 33,900
UK Civil service (so without outsourced functions, QUANGOs etc.) 440,000