The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

We moved here 7 years ago, and bought our house here 8 years ago using £- so the values are very clear to us.

In the meantime:



Britain First has announced it is to launch a “direct action campaign against Muslim elected officials” targeting “where they live, work, pray”.

The militant, far-right group says politicians such as Sadiq Khan and Sajid Javid would now be classed as “occupiers” intent on taking over the UK.


Polish shops are being vandalised and Polish families have their garden sheds next to their house set alight, and are being aggressed and insulted in the streets, at school, etc. Second, third generation British people of Indian origins are being spat at and insulted and told to f**k off back home...
Exactly what my mother witnessed in Munich 1933.

So even if the value of the £ is a real concern, and to us personally a bit of a disaster- this is not what matters- but the latter- which is tragic beyond belief.

We did intend to go back to the UK in our latter years, so this downfall could have worked in our favour at a later stage, but it seems much more likely now that our children and grand-children will be moving here instead- moving their business from the City to CH.

[Capo]

	Quote:	marton
	"The EU has caused much more harm than good," Do you have factual examples? Or is this just propaganda?

I apologize for not being specific. EU has caused much more harm than good on some countries, but indeed benefited others. In Italy, for example, GDP per capita, wages, and purchasing power decreased heavily after the Euro (I can put numbers here if you want).

I am not against the EU or the Euro, on the contrary, I think it was an excellent idea. The problem is that the politicians screwed it up. First it was founded with a fundamental error: single monetary policy dictated by the EU central bank but with various fiscal policies dictated by each country. Second, and the most serious reason for this mess, was to set up a central controlled decision making structure with huge powers and bureaucracy.

While you have the USA, Canada, China, Malaysia, Australia, etc., who are very flexible and efficient, the EU on the other hand is lagging in most of areas involving trade, labor, and entrepreneurship. Take ridiculous regulations such as 20 items that an English fisherman needs to comply with to do his job or how a company should design and manufacturer a pillow.

[Capo]

	Quote:	Kosti

Tell me where in Europe people are better off than those in "Oranje County".

	Quote:
	We moved here 7 years ago, and bought our house here 8 years ago using £- so the values are very clear to us. In the meantime: Britain First has announced it is to launch a “direct action campaign against Muslim elected officials” targeting “where they live, work, pray”. The militant, far-right group says politicians such as Sadiq Khan and Sajid Javid would now be classed as “occupiers” intent on taking over the UK. Polish shops are being vandalised and Polish families have their garden sheds next to their house set alight, and are being aggressed and insulted in the streets, at school, etc. Second, third generation British people of Indian origins are being spat at and insulted and told to f**k off back home... Exactly what my mother witnessed in Munich 1933. So even if the value of the £ is a real concern, and to us personally a bit of a disaster- this is not what matters- but the latter- which is tragic beyond belief.

Where I am the UK, I see no evidence of this.. not in local TV news, local papers, at schools, shops, community etc.
Are you sure the media aren't making it sound like it's everywhere? You sure sound like you think it is. Those nutters and loons, racist attacks have always been with us, suddenly they're larger than life and very noticeable.

The sooner May gets elected and puts an end to the idea that European families have to leave their UK homes the better.. and puts an end to this hysteria.

Oh FFS, it has been reported in the Press everywhere and news- etc, and officially by police. There are 100s of articles you can Google.

I see you live in Hants- so perhpas not in your neck of the woods or in leafy Surrey. Although my grandson in the latter came home disgusted at 2 incidents of verbal abuse at his primary school.

	Quote:
	Oh FFS, it has been reported in the Press everywhere and news- etc, and officially by police. There are 100s of articles you can Google. I see you live in Hants- so perhpas not in your neck of the woods or in leafy Surrey. Although my grandson in the latter came home disgusted at 2 incidents of verbal abuse at his primary school.

I live in a mixed community of all races and with Europeans and there's no evidence of it. Suddenly the media/ papers are to be believed, but not prior to to Brexit.. yeah right!

Even in parts of Hampshire where racial tensions have often been an issue, there are no news reports on increased problems/tensions.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Oh FFS, it has been reported in the Press everywhere and news- etc, and officially by police. There are 100s of articles you can Google. I see you live in Hants- so perhpas not in your neck of the woods or in leafy Surrey. Although my grandson in the latter came home disgusted at 2 incidents of verbal abuse at his primary school.

Having been in London, Birmingham & Worcestershire, I have not seen anything different in the slightest.

Do you have any first hand info, or from your direct family?

Amazing how you can see my posts when I am on your ignore list!

	Quote:	Swisstree
	The sooner May gets elected and puts an end to the idea that European families have to leave their UK homes the better.. and puts an end to this hysteria.

Are you sure it would subside after that? It's been like a kennel when all the dogs bark at each other all at the same time. Nobody ever knows what triggers it. You just ignore it until they get tired.

[marton]

	Quote:	Capo
	I apologize for not being specific. EU has caused much more harm than good on some countries, but indeed benefited others. In Italy, for example, GDP per capita, wages, and purchasing power decreased heavily after the Euro (I can put numbers here if you want). I am not against the EU or the Euro, on the contrary, I think it was an excellent idea. The problem is that the politicians screwed it up. First it was founded with a fundamental error: single monetary policy dictated by the EU central bank but with various fiscal policies dictated by each country. Second, and the most serious reason for this mess, was to set up a central controlled decision making structure with huge powers and bureaucracy. While you have the USA, Canada, China, Malaysia, Australia, etc., who are very flexible and efficient, the EU on the other hand is lagging in most of areas involving trade, labor, and entrepreneurship. Take ridiculous regulations such as 20 items that an English fisherman needs to comply with to do his job or how a company should design and manufacturer a pillow.

20 items! The US fishing regulations run to many pages: http://www.fisheries.noaa.gov

Similar for Canada. http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fisheries-p...ciale-eng.html

China!!
In 1999, China set an objective of “zero growth” in coastal marine capture catch, and in 2001 changed the objective to “minus growth”. To achieve this, China has been reducing vessel numbers and relocating fishermen away from marine capture fisheries. By the end of 2004, 8,000 vessels were scrapped and 40,000 fishermen were relocated.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Capo
	Take ridiculous regulations such as 20 items that an English fisherman needs to comply with to do his job or how a company should design and manufacturer a pillow.

Could you post a link to either of these regulations please?

[marton]

	Quote:	Swisstree
	I live in a mixed community of all races and with Europeans and there's no evidence of it. Suddenly the media/ papers are to be believed, but not prior to to Brexit.. yeah right! Even in parts of Hampshire where racial tensions have often been an issue, there are no news reports on increased problems/tensions.

Quote. . The UK National Police Chiefs Council reported that there had been a 57 percent jump in hate crime reports to its online reporting site compared with the same time frame a month ago.

[marton]

End of story!
The hopes of more than 4.1 million people who signed a petition calling for a second referendum on the EU have faded, after a response from the government saying it was a “once in a generation vote”.

[Connor MacLeod]

	Quote:
	We moved here 7 years ago, and bought our house here 8 years ago using £- so the values are very clear to us. In the meantime: Britain First has announced it is to launch a “direct action campaign against Muslim elected officials” targeting “where they live, work, pray”. The militant, far-right group says politicians such as Sadiq Khan and Sajid Javid would now be classed as “occupiers” intent on taking over the UK. Polish shops are being vandalised and Polish families have their garden sheds next to their house set alight, and are being aggressed and insulted in the streets, at school, etc. Second, third generation British people of Indian origins are being spat at and insulted and told to f**k off back home... Exactly what my mother witnessed in Munich 1933. So even if the value of the £ is a real concern, and to us personally a bit of a disaster- this is not what matters- but the latter- which is tragic beyond belief. We did intend to go back to the UK in our latter years, so this downfall could have worked in our favour at a later stage, but it seems much more likely now that our children and grand-children will be moving here instead- moving their business from the City to CH.

You're right these things are happening but they also happened before Brexit, its nothing new, the trash media your are reading now has something to hook it onto and make a story out of it.
I suggest you change the media you are reading or see through the bullshit that is written.

As for BF, before that you had the BNP, before that you had the National Front.

There is scum now, there was scum before and there will still be scum in 20 years time.

The rise in racist attack, be they verbal or otherwise- have been reported in all newspapers and tv channels, as well as the police. The scum, as you call it, seems to have been given a voice and legitimity by Brexit - tragically.

Nought so deaf and blind ...

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:
	Britain First has announced it is to launch a “direct action campaign against Muslim elected officials” targeting “where they live, work, pray”. The militant, far-right group says politicians such as Sadiq Khan and Sajid Javid would now be classed as “occupiers” intent on taking over the UK.

This tiny band of extremists sound like they are advocating hate crimes, and will no doubt be dealt with under the robust legislation that exists for this purpose.

	Quote:
	Polish shops are being vandalised and Polish families have their garden sheds next to their house set alight, and are being aggressed and insulted in the streets, at school, etc. Second, third generation British people of Indian origins are being spat at and insulted and told to f**k off back home... Exactly what my mother witnessed in Munich 1933.

Odile, you are better than this. Munich 1933? Really?

Yes, we've all heard that there has been an increase in the reporting of hate crimes, but an increase in reporting is by no means the same as an increase in the crimes. Before you jump at me, consider these points:

• Do high profile court cases centring on rape and child abuse really bring about a large increase in these crimes? Or is it simply that people feel more confident in coming forward to report them?
  
  
• Before the referendum, imagine this scenario.... In a busy supermarket carpark in Sometown, UK, a Polish driver nips into a parking space just ahead an English guy who was about to reverse into it. The English guy winds down his window and shouts at the other guy. The Pole gets out and walks towards the shop, calling back to the English guy that he was quite entitled to park there. Recognising his Polish accent, the English bloke, still fuming, shouts: "And go back home! We don't want you here!" The Polish guy shrugs and carries on with his shopping. He later recounts this story to his Polish mate and they have a chuckle about it and think no more about it. The English guy meanwhile, had found another parking space and calmed down, feeling bad that he had shouted at someone over nothing, and resolves to be more sensible in future.
  
  After the referendum, imagine the same scenario.... except that later on, when he recounts the story to his Polish mate, instead of having a chuckle about it, the mate says: "I've been reading about this sort of abuse, and the local MP says we should report all instances of this sort of thing." And so they go to the local police station and duly report this "hate crime" because the English guy had made reference to him being a foreigner. A reporting statistic is born where previously there was none.
  
  
• The figures themselves need careful examination. The Met Police say they get up to 50 hate crime reports a day, but that in the week after the referendum this rose to 74 a day. It seems there were 599 reports between 24 June and 2 July, and that reference to the EU or the referendum was made in 23 of those 599 incidents. Not good, but consider this. I could sit at my computer now, create a dummy email account, and send 200 abusive emails to random non-British people in the UK. Even if only 100 of those people bothered to report the abuse, that’s another 100 reports immediately on file. The argument about what constitutes a hate crime, and the insistence on regarding each instance as a separate crime, needs to be taken on board.
  
  
• Within a few days of the referendum, I must have seen at least half a dozen newspaper reports about Twitter messages depicting notices that had been stuck on the walls of Polish shops, social clubs etc. saying bad things about ‘foreigners’ in their native language. Now of course, I wouldn’t dream of suggesting that it is in the interest of Remainers to want to keep the angry pot simmering away, but something did occur to me. How hard would it be for me to go to Google Translate, concoct an unpleasant message in Polish, attach it to a suitably untraceable wall or window, take a picture of it and post to Twitter, claiming I’d seen it attached to the local Polish deli? I repeat that I cannot possibly imagine anyone mischievous enough to do such a thing, but I feel the need to report this weird thought I had, to prevent anyone else making the same mistake as me.

In fact, I am not doubting the possibility, even the likelihood, that there has been some increase in abuse. We are living in emotional times. But I have to say that nearly all the anger and bitterness I see and read, is coming from one side only — those who lost the referendum. I could understand it far more if there was a surge in hate crimes following a 52:48 defeat for the Leave side. But post-victory, all I’m seeing among Leave commentators and people I know is a sense of relief and silent satisfaction. Now that we have the decision we argued for, the very last thing I feel like doing is rabble-rousing and provoking anger from the other side. I’ve got what I want, and what I think the UK desperately needs. Implementing Brexit will take a long time — at least 2 years and possibly between 5 and 10. But after waiting so long, I’m prepared to be patient for a bit longer.

But please be careful about those "Munich 1933" parallels which only weaken your argument. What your mother experienced was probably dreadful but having been in the UK for the last week, I can assure you that Manchester 2016 is really not Munich 1933, and will never become so.

[Phil_MCR]

I really disliked the negative campaigning on both sides and in particular some of the anti-immigration rhetoric.

In the short term, there will be a crack-down. In the long term, I don't know if there is a solution to anti-immigration sentiment since foreigners are always the scapegoats when the economy turns sour.

[fatmanfilms]

I remember coming to Switzerland & being told WTF was I doing by taking AS***'s job. AS*** was a complete f***wit who had been screwing up day in & day sighting 'software issues' for his complete incompetence. This was before free movement in 1994. That crap software had won an Academy award in the USA & I had been using it on a daily basis in the UK without issue.

Did I report this hate crime? of course not as everybody would have just laughed in my face.

[marton]

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	I really disliked the negative campaigning on both sides and in particular some of the anti-immigration rhetoric. In the short term, there will be a crack-down. In the long term, I don't know if there is a solution to anti-immigration sentiment since foreigners are always the scapegoats when the economy turns sour.

"In the long term, ..........when the economy turns sour." Ah so

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	I really disliked the negative campaigning on both sides and in particular some of the anti-immigration rhetoric. In the short term, there will be a crack-down. In the long term, I don't know if there is a solution to anti-immigration sentiment since foreigners are always the scapegoats when the economy turns sour.

The sooner it is made clear we said no to the EU and not to our European friends the better. Europeans have always been welcome in the UK, we've always had a good relationship with all our neighbors, why should that change? I don't understand how some peoples thinking can be wrapped up neatly as all or nothing.

Thankfully, I am not seeing any changes in attitude where I live.

[marton]

	Quote:	Swisstree
	The sooner it is made clear we said no to the EU and not to our European friends the better. Europeans have always been welcome in the UK, we've always had a good relationship with all our neighbors, why should that change? I don't understand how some peoples thinking can be wrapped up neatly as all or nothing. Thankfully, I am not seeing any changes in attitude where I live.

"Europeans have always been welcome in the UK," So you support the free movement of people?