The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[rainer_d]

Similarly, I suspect that talks between the EU and Turkey about a membership of Turkey in the EU haven't completely stopped because then the people who work on this project on the EU side wouldn't have "real" jobs to do anymore either.
And their superiors would manage less people, which could result in somebody lowering their salaries...

	Quote:	marton
	Actually the salaries of British EU bureaucrats are lower than the salaries of British bureaucrats due to Neil Kinnock cutting all their salaries when he was an EU Commissioner. I suppose that this was yet another false fact that caused you to support Brexit? Anyway if you bother to read the article you will find it is not about British EU bureaucrats. It is about British (UK) bureaucrats concerned they have to find other jobs like the 40 people who were preparing for the UK presidency of the EU that ain't going to happen now.

Did YOU read the article? Here, let me help:

	Quote:
	'You work for Europe' Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker tried to reassure his British employees with an all-staff email the day after the 23 June referendum. He wrote: "According to our Staff Regulations, you are 'Union officials'. You work for Europe. You left your national 'hats' at the door when you joined this institution and that door is not closing on you now." But the handbook makes no mention of what happens if a country leaves the EU, only whether someone retires, resigns or is fired. Mr Juncker has pledged to do "everything he can" to help Brits and their families during the Brexit process. "I've been working in Europe for nearly a decade. I'm wondering what to do with my career," one British official said.

If you work for European Institutions then you draw your salary directly from them. Kinnock had no influence whatsoever. So what you're saying is plain wrong.

I'm not going to shed a single tear for people who have enjoyed the good life at tax payer's expense, with gold plated pensions and special allowances, whilst paying a special tax rate of their own.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Did YOU read the article? Here, let me help: If you work for European Institutions then you draw your salary directly from them. Kinnock had no influence whatsoever. So what you're saying is plain wrong. I'm not going to shed a single tear for people who have enjoyed the good life at tax payer's expense, with gold plated pensions and special allowances, whilst paying a special tax rate of their own.

"Kinnock had no influence whatsoever. So what you're saying is plain wrong."

Apologies for bringing you face to face with reality!

Quote "During his second term of office on the Commission, Kinnock was responsible for introducing new staff regulations for EU officials, a significant feature of which was substantial salary cuts for everyone employed after 1 May 2004, reduced pension prospects for many others, and gradually worsening employment conditions.

Source
or here!

A little time spent on research is better than simply guessing about situations, google is your friend!

"gold plated pensions"

Employees contribute about 11.3% of their basic salary to a pension scheme. Pensions are paid as a percentage of the final basic salary, with a ceiling of 70%.

You must have a different definition of gold plated.

	Quote:	marton
	"gold plated pensions" Employees contribute about 11.3% of their basic salary to a pension scheme. Pensions are paid as a percentage of the final basic salary, with a ceiling of 70%. You must have a different definition of gold plated.

70% final salary pension is gold plated in anyone's book, apart from you of course. They're more or less unheard of today.

And a link to a fifteen year old newspaper article doesn't prove anything. And certainly doesn't explain why all these years later anything up to 10,000 people who work for the EU are taking home more money than the UK PM.

Kinnock was the worst. This hypocrite accrued a fortune of over 10 million off the back of being at the EU.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	70% final salary pension is gold plated in anyone's book, apart from you of course. They're more or less unheard of today. And a link to a fifteen year old newspaper article doesn't prove anything. And certainly doesn't explain why all these years later anything up to 10,000 people who work for the EU are taking home more money than the UK PM. Kinnock was the worst. This hypocrite accrued a fortune of over 10 million off the back of being at the EU.

"a link to a fifteen year old newspaper article doesn't prove anything" It was 15 years that Kinnock cut the salaries of the EU workers; I do not suppose any newspapers would see this topic as hot news to report today

"anything up to 10,000 people who work for the EU are taking home more money than the UK PM" Is it their problem that the UK PM is so poorly paid and UK taxes are so high?
All the EFers earning 120K also take home more than the UK PM.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	marton
	"Kinnock had no influence whatsoever. So what you're saying is plain wrong." Apologies for bringing you face to face with reality! Quote "During his second term of office on the Commission, Kinnock was responsible for introducing new staff regulations for EU officials, a significant feature of which was substantial salary cuts for everyone employed after 1 May 2004, reduced pension prospects for many others, and gradually worsening employment conditions. Source or here! A little time spent on research is better than simply guessing about situations, google is your friend! "gold plated pensions" Employees contribute about 11.3% of their basic salary to a pension scheme. Pensions are paid as a percentage of the final basic salary, with a ceiling of 70%. You must have a different definition of gold plated.

Christ alive. A 70% final salary scheme not gold plated ? What world are you living in ? It's not gold plated, it's a 21 carat half ton block of gold served on a platinum plate.

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	70% final salary pension is gold plated in anyone's book, apart from you of course. They're more or less unheard of today.

AFAIK, it's typical for any German civil servant.
Source: father is a retired civil servant.

I remember an episode where it was claimed that the driver of the head of the European Patent Office in Munich earned more than the head of the German Patent Office.
Can't find any sources for that right now, though. So I'm reluctantly filing it under "urban legends".
;-)

[Mikers]

	Quote:	marton
	"a link to a fifteen year old newspaper article doesn't prove anything" It was 15 years that Kinnock cut the salaries of the EU workers; I do not suppose any newspapers would see this topic as hot news to report today "anything up to 10,000 people who work for the EU are taking home more money than the UK PM" Is it their problem that the UK PM is so poorly paid and UK taxes are so high? All the EFers earning 120K also take home more than the UK PM.

That last line is stretching the truth to an extent the Brexit policy team would have been proud of.

[yacek]

	Quote:	rainer_d
	AFAIK, it's typical for any German civil servant. Source: father is a retired civil servant.

That's why others in Germany, in the private sector, have to pay high taxes for all these Statsbeamte, according to my Swiss acquaintance.

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	yacek
	That's why others in Germany, in the private sector, have to pay high taxes for all these Statsbeamte, according to my Swiss acquaintance.

They get a smaller salary instead (well, unless you're something like a Federal Judge (Bundesrichter)).
But they don't have to pay into a pension scheme and there are no deductions for health-insurance (and unemployment insurance - it's a job for life after all ).
But they still pay the German tax-rate.

E.g. all policemen are civil servants. But they only earn a comparative pittance to what shit-job they often have. and they don't really earn that much more in Munich than in some cow-village in Lower Saxonia (which is also a bit of a problem in Zurich, hence almost all cops in Zurich come from outside).
Anyway, you get regular, automatic raises in salary, but unless you actually get promoted to a higher "level", that just compensates for inflation.
Getting promoted to a higher level usually involves moving to some other place, where a particular higher-level job is available.

As for the taxes.
It's not that bad, it usually correlates with the public expenditure quota.

Consider this comparison:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsquote

Germany has managed to keep it below 50% and was even able to lower it a few percent points in recent years (while the UK's went up slightly).
Switzerland is very lean indeed.
France... oh my...
But look at China.

Because a lot of money flows into social security (from tax money), the statistics is skewed for some states (Denmark comes to mind).

[marton]

	Quote:	marton
	"a link to a fifteen year old newspaper article doesn't prove anything" It was 15 years that Kinnock cut the salaries of the EU workers; I do not suppose any newspapers would see this topic as hot news to report today "anything up to 10,000 people who work for the EU are taking home more money than the UK PM" Is it their problem that the UK PM is so poorly paid and UK taxes are so high? All the EFers earning 120K also take home more than the UK PM.

	Quote:	Mikers
	That last line is stretching the truth to an extent the Brexit policy team would have been proud of.

True, got my numbers mixed up.

	Quote:	rainer_d
	They get a smaller salary instead (well, unless you're something like a Federal Judge (Bundesrichter)). But they don't have to pay into a pension scheme and there are no deductions for health-insurance (and unemployment insurance - it's a job for life after all ). But they still pay the German tax-rate. E.g. all policemen are civil servants. But they only earn a comparative pittance to what shit-job they often have. and they don't really earn that much more in Munich than in some cow-village in Lower Saxonia (which is also a bit of a problem in Zurich, hence almost all cops in Zurich come from outside). Anyway, you get regular, automatic raises in salary, but unless you actually get promoted to a higher "level", that just compensates for inflation. Getting promoted to a higher level usually involves moving to some other place, where a particular higher-level job is available. As for the taxes. It's not that bad, it usually correlates with the public expenditure quota.

Teachers on the other hand, who are also civil servants in Germany, receive very generous salaries and pensions as well as many other benefits too. All at the expense of the tax payer.

I understand that public sector jobs have to have a few extra perks as the salaries are generally pretty low. But when you're able to leave your job for three years, travel the world, come back and still have a job waiting for you, as you're able to do so in Germany, then someone is taking the pi$$ somewhere.

The problem with final salary schemes is normally, there is no pension pot big enough, so it's just coming directly from taxes. And also they're so easy to abuse - many councils in the UK used to give massive unwarranted promotions to workers for the last five years of their working life just to give their pensions a boost.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Teachers on the other hand, who are also civil servants in Germany, receive very generous salaries and pensions as well as many other benefits too. All at the expense of the tax payer. I understand that public sector jobs have to have a few extra perks as the salaries are generally pretty low. But when you're able to leave your job for three years, travel the world, come back and still have a job waiting for you, as you're able to do so in Germany, then someone is taking the pi$$ somewhere. The problem with final salary schemes is normally, there is no pension pot big enough, so it's just coming directly from taxes. And also they're so easy to abuse - many councils in the UK used to give massive unwarranted promotions to workers for the last five years of their working life just to give their pensions a boost.

The Private / Public pay gap in Britain, at least, is a myth anyway. i cannot vouvh for figures this year but I recall last year on Question Time the official figure was used in a debate and Public sector earn slightly more than private. Of course Private gets the headlines because a few traders earn millions, but with the wage dumping effect of mass competition at the bottom end, its the public sector that pay significantly more.

[dawiz]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Teachers on the other hand, who are also civil servants in Germany, receive very generous salaries and pensions as well as many other benefits too. All at the expense of the tax payer.

Are you kidding me? Teachers also make sure that that the nation's spoilt brats get an upbringing and an education that'll eventually benefit the economy tremendously. Teaching isn't easy - burn-out rates are comparable to those of top managers, 60-hour weeks are the norm and not the exception. Compared to that, the salaries paid are a freaking joke.

	Quote:	Mikers
	The Private / Public pay gap in Britain, at least, is a myth anyway. i cannot vouvh for figures this year but I recall last year on Question Time the official figure was used in a debate and Public sector earn slightly more than private. Of course Private gets the headlines because a few traders earn millions, but with the wage dumping effect of mass competition at the bottom end, its the public sector that pay significantly more.

Good point!

	Quote:	dawiz
	Are you kidding me? Teachers also make sure that that the nation's spoilt brats get an upbringing and an education that'll eventually benefit the economy tremendously. Teaching isn't easy - burn-out rates are comparable to those of top managers, 60-hour weeks are the norm and not the exception. Compared to that, the salaries paid are a freaking joke.

And they also get 13-16 weeks holiday a year to compensate. Top managers don't get that.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	dawiz
	Are you kidding me? Teachers also make sure that that the nation's spoilt brats get an upbringing and an education that'll eventually benefit the economy tremendously. Teaching isn't easy - burn-out rates are comparable to those of top managers, 60-hour weeks are the norm and not the exception. Compared to that, the salaries paid are a freaking joke.

Don't teachers get rather long holidays? I doubt the average teacher has the stress level of a 'top manager'. As Woody Allen said in Manhattan, 'if you can't do you teach, if you can't teach you teach PE', that would apply to 75% of the teachers I had at school or met in real life over the next 38 years. There were a few exceptions but they were few & far between.

[dawiz]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Good point! And they also get 13-16 weeks holiday a year to compensate. Top managers don't get that.

top managers get paid 2-3 times of what a teacher gets. Also it's not 13 weeks of vacation, it's 13 weeks without classes. Typically, about 3 of them are used for mandatory further education courses, another 6 or 7 are used for preparation time, language stays with students etc. Over the last 4 years, I was able to take an average of 3 weeks per year of vacation time and I usually work 3 out of 4 weekends every month. The vacation time will likely rise to perhaps 4-5 in another 10 years as slightly less preparation is needed with more experience. Officially, I have 4 weeks of actual vacation time in my (public school) contract.

In the private school sector, things are even worse, as often you don't get any paid vacation at all and are hired on a per-lesson basis.

I'm sure there are lots of areas where the government actually wastes more money than would be the case in the private sector, but education is a very bad example for this.

Also, I work a crapload more now as a teacher than I did as an IT team leader, which was my previous job - and pay is about 1/3 less. Job satisfaction is much higher now, that's one thing I can't complain about.

[dawiz]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	that would apply to 75% of the teachers I had at school or met in real life over the next 38 years.

Really - and how do you judge their work-time? About 99% of all the bankers I've ever seen were chatting with each-other on the way from their workplace to lunch at Bahnhofstrasse in Zürich. Therefore I believe all they're ever doing is chatting and having lunch. They get paid handsomely for that.

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Teachers on the other hand, who are also civil servants in Germany, receive very generous salaries and pensions as well as many other benefits too. All at the expense of the tax payer.

Yeah, I know. But having been a pupil myself, even the prospect of life-long, secure employment, the extra-holidays and all the other stuff didn't really entice my into entering that profession.
So, I think that money is actually well-earned. Even more so because a lot of them actually provide a lot of value to society.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I understand that public sector jobs have to have a few extra perks as the salaries are generally pretty low. But when you're able to leave your job for three years, travel the world, come back and still have a job waiting for you, as you're able to do so in Germany, then someone is taking the pi$$ somewhere.

Depending on what you do, it could be more than three years.
E.g. if you win a seat in the EP, you can postpone the teacher-job pretty much indefinitely.
Also, due to "Elternzeit" in Germany, women can leave their jobs for three years anyway. Any job. AFAIK, the "Elterngeld" is paid by taxpayers.
Employers "just" have to keep the seat warm...

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The problem with final salary schemes is normally, there is no pension pot big enough, so it's just coming directly from taxes. And also they're so easy to abuse - many councils in the UK used to give massive unwarranted promotions to workers for the last five years of their working life just to give their pensions a boost.

As of a couple of years ago, I don't even think a lot of governments (there are civil servants on various levels of the German federation) accounted a "pension pot" for all those pensions. Due to the age-structure of the population (and civil servants) somebody finally saw the avalanche coming...

But I do believe the EU bureaucracy is a particularly "clean" demonstration of Parkinson's Law.
Switzerland's public expenditure quota is relatively low because there's a lot of oversight and accountability from the tax-payer on every level of government.
That oversight is almost entirely missing from almost all EU institutions.
All the oversight is basically coming from sporadic press-coverage of scandals - and that's written by journalists who might or might not want to get (or need) a cushy PR-job at any of the institutions they cover, at some point in the future...
That is probably the real reason so many people (including myself) don't really have much sympathy for anybody working there.

	Quote:	dawiz
	top managers get paid 2-3 times of what a teacher gets. Also it's not 13 weeks of vacation, it's 13 weeks without classes. Typically, about 3 of them are used for mandatory further education courses, another 6 or 7 are used for preparation time, language stays with students etc. Over the last 4 years, I was able to take an average of 3 weeks per year of vacation time and I usually work 3 out of 4 weekends every month. The vacation time will likely rise to perhaps 4-5 in another 10 years as slightly less preparation is needed with more experience. Officially, I have 4 weeks of actual vacation time in my (public school) contract. In the private school sector, things are even worse, as often you don't get any paid vacation at all and are hired on a per-lesson basis. I'm sure there are lots of areas where the government actually wastes more money than would be the case in the private sector, but education is a very bad example for this. Also, I work a crapload more now as a teacher than I did as an IT team leader, which was my previous job - and pay is about 1/3 less. Job satisfaction is much higher now, that's one thing I can't complain about.

If teachers work as hard as they tell everyone during the school holidays how about the next time they go on strike they do so then?

My missus is a teacher and she never had to take 3 weeks off for mandatory further education courses. And 6-7 weeks for Prep?! A couple of days max before term starts again. Perhaps longer after the summer break.

In general there are two types of teacher. Those that accept they're never going to rich doing the job, but are able to offset that knowing it can be deeply rewarding, with great holidays and something you can really engage yourself in. The other type just complain about everything - money, government, curriculum, hours etc. They always find someone else to blame and by and large tend not be very good teachers.

Anyway, this has veered waaaay off topic. I didn't want to have a dig at teachers, I know it's not an easy job. But not so hard that they warrant all the benefits that they get in Germany and I was referring to teachers specifically in Germany.