The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Reb77Br]

Interesting that those who were complaining about an undemocratic EU/'EU dictatorship' are happy for an unelected British PM to bypass parliament.

	Quote:	Reb77Br
	Interesting that those who were complaining about an undemocratic EU/'EU dictatorship' are happy for an unelected British PM to bypass parliament.

But since when has a British PM ever been elected?

	Quote:	Phos
	But since when has a British PM ever been elected?

The PM isn't elected by the populous, the party is elected. The PM is elected by that party.

	Quote:	Phos
	That may be true, though I'm not sure the EU should be credited with that. They aren't really in a position from Brussels to determine what and how needs to be addressed somewhere else. These are decisions that are determined at the local level. So they may have funded it as they were required, but I do not believe they know what is best for everybody everywhere. Which is really the problem with a centralized planning community like the EU. Who is to say such improvements would not have been made without the EU?

I'm sure you're right about the EU not directly deciding what needs to be addressed and where. That's at local level then an application is made.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Reb77Br
	Interesting that those who were complaining about an undemocratic EU/'EU dictatorship' are happy for an unelected British PM to bypass parliament.

	Quote:	Phos
	But since when has a British PM ever been elected?

I hope you're not British Reb77Br as that would be embarrassing... even Phos knows that UK PM's are not 'elected'.

In fact in the last 100 years, around half of all prime ministers came into office without having won a general election.

That, by the way, includes Winston Churchill.

EDIT - The duplicate quote was fully intentional, so don't just modedit posts based on your own whim. Thanks.

	Quote:
	I'm sure you're right about the EU not directly deciding what needs to be addressed and where. That's at local level then an application is made.

There are times when the EU prevents this kind of intelligence at the local level. Its these situations that is really responsible for Brexit. The most famous case is how a country can manage and plan its immigration policies.

	Quote:	Phos
	There are times when the EU prevents this kind of intelligence at the local level. Its these situations that is really responsible for Brexit. The most famous case is how a country can manage and plan its immigration policies.

True but even Switzerland has fallen foul of the EU in this case, hasn't it?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Chuff
	I hope you're not British Reb77Br as that would be embarrassing... even Phos knows that UK PM's are not 'elected'. In fact in the last 100 years, around half of all prime ministers came into office without having won a general election. That, by the way, includes Winston Churchill.

But....May became PM by default when Andrea Leadsom dropped out, so technically, she wasn't even elected by the Conservative party.

	Quote:
	True but even Switzerland has fallen foul of the EU in this case, hasn't it?

Right, in a bind at the moment, due to the timeframe required to enact the referendum. I am a Swiss national, and strongly side with Switzerland and its governing principles on this issue. Hence am pleased to see all the pushback the EU is receiving in regards to immigration. I suspect they will eventually have to buckle to democratic principles, and it would be in Switzerland's favor. But time is not on Switzerland's side at the moment. I do resent how this is being held up by undemocratically elected EU bureaucrats.

I don't fault the Swiss for holding a referendum at all. I think referendums are democratic processes worth celebrating and protecting. I'd like to see more of it throughout Europe.

So, Phos, you're not a British citizen, you can't vote in the UK, you don't live in the UK. Have you ever lived in the UK? Do you know anybody (well) who lives in the UK? It sounds to me like you're informing yourself on this issue by reading American magazines and watching right-wing YouTube channels, and you're posting here purely to troll. How's my analysis?

Yet another thread gets Phossilized.

	Quote:
	So, Phos, you're not a British citizen, you can't vote in the UK, you don't live in the UK. Have you ever lived in the UK? Do you know anybody (well) who lives in the UK? It sounds to me like you're informing yourself on this issue by reading American magazines and watching right-wing YouTube channels, and you're posting here purely to troll. How's my analysis? Yet another thread gets Phossilized.

Quite off the mark. Yes, I've spent a lot of time there, know plenty of people there, and a large portion of my colleagues are there now. Regardless, its still quite a public topic anyone in Europe would be right to have an opinion on.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	But....May became PM by default when Andrea Leadsom dropped out, so technically, she wasn't even elected by the Conservative party.

Erm, so what part of it was not legitimate? She had an overwhelming majority and Andrea Leadsom dropped out because she knew she had no chance and it would damage her political career and even personal life due to the media attention she was getting. End of story.

Or do you know some alternate version of events that the rest of the UK was not privy to?

[Reb77Br]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	But....May became PM by default when Andrea Leadsom dropped out, so technically, she wasn't even elected by the Conservative party.

That's what I thought too.


What I can't understand is why a system involving a European Commissioner appointed by an elected government and involving directly elected MEPs is less democratic than having a PM appointed by their party bypassing parliament and ruling by royal prerogative following a non-binding referendum result reflecting the views of 37% of the voting population.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	If you continue to evade the question, I cannot take your views seriously in any way, shape or form, because you're not presenting a valid frame of reference that would explain your perspective.

Phos' vagueness you remarked on before is intended, he's trolling most (perhaps all) of the time.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Phos' vagueness you remarked on before is intended, he's trolling most (perhaps all) of the time.

What vagueness? I believe I answered her question. May not be the answer she wanted to hear, that's all. The point is pretty clear. Otherwise, she can try again.

Spending 'quite a bit of time there' - what does it mean? A few weeks hols here and there? Living in a country for a decade or more, and hopefully in several and varied locations (London is not the UK, just as ZH is not CH)... maybe more apt to understand how a country ticks.

Yes, another thread become Phossilized

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Phos
	What vagueness? I believe I answered her question. May not be the answer she wanted to hear, that's all. The point is pretty clear. Otherwise, she can try again.

You answered my question in post #4769 and not in response to my post.

So, am I correct in concluding that you are a Swiss national / passport holder, who has been born and raised in Switzerland?


I do find that difficult to believe because of the language you use, some of which is only in common useage in the US.


We all get the point about the timing of the Brexit negotiations causing a delay in the EU negotiations r.e. the 2014 Swiss referendum on immigration control, which should be completed by April 2017 but is currently being met with silence from the EU. Unlike yourself, it doesn't take 4 pages of fluff and going all round the houses to make that point.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You answered my question in post #4769 and not in response to my post. So, am I correct in concluding that you are a Swiss national / passport holder, who has been born and raised in Switzerland? I do find that difficult to believe because of the language you use, some of which is only in common useage in the US.

Not really, but I think all that is irrelevant to the topic, which is really what you should stick too.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Phos
	What vagueness? I believe I answered her question. May not be the answer she wanted to hear, that's all. The point is pretty clear. Otherwise, she can try again.

Nope, you replied but that was no answer. That in itself would be nothing if it weren't so typical of you, as is #4771: Talking points that immediately become meaningless once you take a closer look.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Phos
	Not really, but I think all that is irrelevant to the topic, which is really what you should stick too.

If you want to be taken seriously, then it's very relevant to the topic.

I'm British born and bred. My maternal grandparents had 11 grandchildren. Of those 11, 5 of us have non-British partners, of which 3 are EU nationals / passport holders (Greek, Dutch & Spanish). Add to that, our nephew currently lives in London on his Greek passport with his Brazillian / Portuguese (dual nationality) girlfriend.

Brexit mmediately affects me and my family on so many levels.

This isn't an educational 'sticking to the issue at hand' point for me and millions like me. This is our real lives and futures.

If you refuse to be clear about your frame of reference, it only serves to prove that you have zero respect for anyone affected by the issue.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	If you want to be taken seriously, then it's very relevant to the topic. .. If you refuse to be clear about your frame of reference, it only serves to prove that you have zero respect for anyone affected by the issue.

Naw, its global politics, not personal. So I'll pass on your personal questions. I typically ignore those.