The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

The US elections will affect all of us - not just US citizens.

[Faltrad]

	Quote:
	The US elections will affect all of us - not just US citizens.

Trolling will affect all of us - not just Phos' trolling.

	Quote:	Reb77Br
	That's what I thought too. What I can't understand is why a system involving a European Commissioner appointed by an elected government and involving directly elected MEPs is less democratic than having a PM appointed by their party bypassing parliament and ruling by royal prerogative following a non-binding referendum result reflecting the views of 37% of the voting population.

	Quote:	TobiasM
	That's not even 35% of the total voting population of the U.K. the winning margin was about 4% and the reality is most of those voting out were duped into it by politicians who mostly didn't understand what they were campaigning for, except their own personal political ambitions, that seem to have backfired.

If the referendum voting results were the same in a general election under the current FPTP system it would have been a land slide the like we've not seen. Brexit won. Democratically. Get over it.

	Quote:	pilatus1
	So because he is not a citizen, doesn't live there, and isn't allowed to vote there, Phos is also not allowed to have an opinion on UK politics? Absurd. I think i'll pop over to the Trump thread and lambast any Brits who have dared to state their opinions on US politics. After all, it doesn't affect them, right?

Exactly. "You don't come from there so can't have an opinion" is the worst possible argument. Some of the behaviour of a few members over the last few pages is nothing short of mobbing.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	If the referendum voting results were the same in a general election under the current FPTP system it would have been a land slide the like we've not seen. Brexit won. Democratically. Get over it. Exactly. "You don't come from there so can't have an opinion" is the worst possible argument. Some of the behaviour of a few members over the last few pages is nothing short of mobbing.

It has been 100% mobbing against Phosphor (even though I'm sure he does intentionally wind up some of the usual suspects) but then that is this thread in a nutshell. Toys, prams, and people with way too much time on their hands throw things out of them.

It's so deliciously ironic to see people complaining about mobbing etc in other areas of the forum, yet all you have to do is go to any political or religion-related thread and you will see by far the worst and most insidious example of it.

Hypocrisy is rife on this forum.

[pilatus1]

	Quote:
	The US elections will affect all of us - not just US citizens.

Exactly my point.

Brexit affects all of us, too - British citizens or not.

My brother's partner is British, along with my little nephew. If the worst case scenario happens, and Brits are no longer allowed to live freely in EU countries, they would have to move back to England from Spain. Only my brother is not allowed to work in England, due to the draconian laws affecting immigrants- whether married to or having children with UK citizens or not. Even as a US citizen, I'm personally affected by Brexit.

And besides personal situations, Brexit affects politics within the whole EU that we are surrounded by and mostly dependent on for trade purposes. Along with global trade, etc, etc.

	Quote:
	Spending 'quite a bit of time there' - what does it mean? A few weeks hols here and there? Living in a country for a decade or more, and hopefully in several and varied locations (London is not the UK, just as ZH is not CH)... maybe more apt to understand how a country ticks.

So have you lived in the States for a decade or more - enough time for you to understand how a country ticks and therefore have an valid opinion on US politics, Trump, etc.? Your criteria, not mine...

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Where I come from, that phrase alone and the context you've used it in, singles you out as American.

And where I come from, and more importantly where I studied informal logic, what you just did is an ad hominem.

This term is also used in the UK, Cambridge and Oxford certainly, and even in remote places like Lancashire it is still a logical fallacy. If you wish confirmation of this, from someone of a similar background to your own, I would suggest contacting someone here:

http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/ppr/about-us/philosophy/

If you wish, you can shout "Yank!" at Phos, or "Colonial!" at me all you wish, but that would be poor form, as well as pointless, and just a little bit... how shall I say?

"nescient"... that was the word I was thinking of.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	pilatus1
	Exactly my point. Brexit affects all of us, too - British citizens or not. My brother's partner is British, along with my little nephew. If the worst case scenario happens, and Brits are no longer allowed to live freely in EU countries, they would have to move back to England from Spain. Only my brother is not allowed to work in England, due to the draconian laws affecting immigrants- whether married to or having children with UK citizens or not. Even as a US citizen, I'm personally affected by Brexit.

Thank you.

You've willingly provided a frame of reference, so that we can see your posts aren't based upon a random thought process and demeaning others who are affected.

That's all I've ever asked of Phos, and now we have it. as he is a Californian with right of centre political views, I again urge him to join the dots between Haider and his original home state. It makes interesting reading.

	Quote:	pilatus1
	So have you lived in the States for a decade or more - enough time for you to understand how a country ticks and therefore have an valid opinion on US politics, Trump, etc.? Your criteria, not mine...

8yrs as a mod on a US political forum. 10yrs working for an American company where writing 'Cuba' in an email would get you a private meeting with your manager. 12yrs implementing US policy in the workplace (also worked as a shift manager for a US hotel chain), including having to read and digest the Homeland Security Act one night shift, and implement it halfway through the shift.


US politics hits everyone in the industry I come from, whether we like it or not. I probably know more about your visa and ESTA system than you do

	Quote:	Chuff
	It has been 100% mobbing against Phosphor (even though I'm sure he does intentionally wind up some of the usual suspects) but then that is this thread in a nutshell.

Its not intentional at all on my part, as I don't know nor care what riles them up or doesn't. I'll just make a point and challenge theirs. That is what a discussion is about.

I actually like my thoughts and opinion on such matters challenged, although this lot shows very little capability of challenging when they have to resort to personal responses.

But I do know the last pages have been about closing down a line of discussion they have problems with losing. For me, its just a demonstration of the same snowflake attributes reported all around all along.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	And where I come from, and more importantly where I studied informal logic, what you just did is an ad hominem.

I'm not ignorant. The term is just not in common usage in the UK, even though my brother used it daily in his line of work (solicitor / barrister).

When I was a mod on a US forum, I used to phone my mum regularly to ask when the term meant in the particular context it was being used my the members. Sometimes, she could explain. Sometimes she used to tell me to phone my brother because the context didn't make sense to her.

If a politician had ised the term in one of the televised Brexit debates, half the polulace would have said "WTF?", some would understand, and the remainder would probably argue about the context it was used in.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Phos
	I actually like my thoughts and opinion on such matters challenged, although this lot shows very little capability of challenging when they have to resort to personal responses.

Oi! Who you callin this lot? Chumm da ane!

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I'm not ignorant. The term is just not in common usage in the UK, even though my brother used it daily in his line of work (solicitor / barrister). When I was a mod on a US forum, I used to phone my mum regularly to ask when the term meant in the particular context it was being used my the members. Sometimes, she could explain. Sometimes she used to tell me to phone my brother because the context didn't make sense to her. If a politician had ised the term in one of the televised Brexit debates, half the polulace would have said "WTF?", some would understand, and the remainder would probably argue about the context it was used in.

So, for want of usage on the particular piece of rock you happened to be born and raised on, you want to forbid anyone from any other particular piece of rock using that particular term, accurate as it may be?

Use whichever term you will, the move is still fallacious, regardless of context.

Its pretty darn impossible to maintain a hegemony of opinions when people think and speak freely, over the Internet at that. Most of the Brexit and EU comments I made actually reflect commentaries coming from the UK itself. Perhaps they are better at shutting down such discussion over there, obviously by attacking those who say it. And then they feign shock. It is kind of funny, although somewhat pathetic.

	Quote:	Phos
	The sentiment to intentionally punish the UK is widespread amongst EU proponents. I've seen written papers and statements by EU proponents. I just wonder if this is acceptable to those who wished to remain, to injure the UK so that they can feel vindicated about the vote.

I think this comment is the bit where it starts to unravel. The intimation you make here is that "all" remain voters think the same way. That's kind of like saying "all" leave voters were motivated by immigration, which is patently not true.

Some remainers now don't see their preconceived fears coming true and maybe embrace the day Article 50 is triggered, others are grudgingly accepting of the result but have grave reservations while others are so angry about it they probably would cheer on the EU taking swipes at UK trade deals and weakening the economy in a "I told you so" kind of a way. You just can't lump groups of voters in the same pile. Everyone had their own (maybe misguided?) reasons and now has their own thoughts on it.

Conversely, there are many Brexiters who are ruing the day they voted leave and are feeling robbed of their 350 million quid they thought would be pouring into the NHS and wish they'd considered a remain vote.

I can't see how there would be "widespread" feeling to hurt your own country. It's more likely to be a small but angry (and loud) minority. My contacts/family back in the UK are still shaking their heads in disbelief or mentally punching the air in celebration, depending on who you talk to but there doesn't seem to be any show of extreme reactions.

	Quote:	pilatus1
	So have you lived in the States for a decade or more - enough time for you to understand how a country ticks and therefore have an valid opinion on US politics, Trump, etc.? Your criteria, not mine...

No I haven't- despite visiting many times for about 1 month at a time.

I do believe there is a big difference between discussing the appalling proposed policies of a dangerous demagogue- that will affect us all- and the inner-workings of a country (in which I happen to have lived all my adult life till recently).

	Quote:
	I think this comment is the bit where it starts to unravel. The intimation you make here is that "all" remain voters think the same way. That's kind of like saying "all" leave voters were motivated by immigration, which is patently not true. .... I can't see how there would be "widespread" feeling to hurt your own country. It's more likely to be a small but angry (and loud) minority. My contacts/family back in the UK are still shaking their heads in disbelief or mentally punching the air in celebration, depending on who you talk to but there doesn't seem to be any show of extreme reactions.

Believe it or not, I asked because I assumed every individual had their own opinion on the matter. I wasn't expecting a singular opinion by "all" remain voters. Only that when it comes to the point of deciding between one's bitterness about losing a referendum, and the interest of the UK, I'm curious to get an idea of how far they would carry their bitterness along.

	Quote:	Phos
	Believe it or not, I asked because I assumed every individual had their own opinion on the matter. I wasn't expecting a singular opinion by "all" remain voters. Only that when it comes to the point of deciding between one's bitterness about losing a referendum, and the interest of the UK, I'm curious to get an idea of how far they would carry their bitterness along.

Ironically, the most notable and damaging acts of bitterness in the aftermath of the Leave vote was all the back-stabbing, resigning and leadership hoodwinking of the Brexit team (Gove, Farage and Johnson to name the biggest donkeys in the paddock). Apart from those utter clowns, the rest of it has been no dirtier than usual every day politics.

	Quote:
	Ironically, the most notable and damaging acts of bitterness in the aftermath of the Leave vote was all the back-stabbing, resigning and leadership hoodwinking of the Brexit team (Gove, Farage and Johnson to name the biggest donkeys in the paddock). Apart from those utter clowns, the rest of it has been no dirtier than usual every day politics.

May just be perspective, or expectation, as I've see much more bitter politics in the US. I actually thought that Farage stepping back into the shadows, Johnson declining to run for PM, and Gove ultimate giving up, were all quite admirably in decorum.

As for the refusal to accept the results, on the other hand, I'm not sure I have ever seen a greater disdain for democracy in the western world. But then, again, perspective, I suppose.

	Quote:	Chuff
	It has been 100% mobbing against Phosphor (even though I'm sure he does intentionally wind up some of the usual suspects) but then that is this thread in a nutshell. Toys, prams, and people with way too much time on their hands throw things out of them. It's so deliciously ironic to see people complaining about mobbing etc in other areas of the forum, yet all you have to do is go to any political or religion-related thread and you will see by far the worst and most insidious example of it. Hypocrisy is rife on this forum.

Exactly that, I've no doubt that Phos is big enough to deal with it. However people on here have flounced off for far far less.

[pilatus1]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	....... I probably know more about your visa and ESTA system than you do

I Wouldnt doubt it, glad ive Never Had to think about those Thinges.

My Personal Story is irrelevant, everyone is affected by brexit.

One doesnt Need to live/work/have Family in a Country in Order to have a valid opinion. There are surely Many Brits on Here Who Know more about US politisch than your average American..





Typung with German Autokorrektur on an iPhone is THe wirst!

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Exactly that, I've no doubt that Phos is big enough to deal with it. However people on here have flounced off for far far less.

This thread is a microcosm which represents exactly what has been going wrong in politics for a while.

The whole "My opinion is righter than yours because you wear different shoes" thing is just so bass ackwards, it really isn't all that surprising that politics has gone to hell in a handbasket.

Sad really. With the range of backgrounds, educations and life experiences here on EF I expect not just a lively debate, but also a reasonably high level.