The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[greenmount]

Phos, phos... you really enjoy the attention, don't ya?

	Quote:
	Phos, this is my point. Take an informed view and argue it intelligently — everybody will appreciate that. Argue for the sake of riling people and you're simply being a troll.

You know when you guys get personal, I smell blood and it indicates to me you don't have much of a point to defend. I do dig in if you persist at it. Now see if you are capabile of having an honest debate without attacking people personally.

Do your job properly MOD!

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Phos
	You know when you guys get personal

You're perfectly capable of that yourself and you know it, stop playing the victim card. It's hilarious. Could this thread lead to more ridicule? I think not.

[marton]

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	Marton, "Calls to dismantle": There was a vote, and it was decided by a small margin, I saw more media coverage of people who wanted to revote because they a) didn't understand that their vote would have consequences, b) didn't accept that they weren't in the majority. I saw very, very few complaints that the margin was so close that a recount might be in order, or that the design of the vote was poor, given the magnitude of the implications. The various lines of reasoning about ways to block Brexit from being implemented are, to my mind, undemocratic in the sense that they start from the premis that when the population has voted there are still ways and means to ignore that vote. Even the call for a new referendum is problematical to my mind. Calls for a referendum to approve or disapprove whatever deal the government comes up with could easily turn into a slippery slope - it really isn't practical to have the government put every single decision to a referendum. "Mansplaining" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining I used it specifically in the sense of: Would you agree that likening Phos to "a hyperactive 3yr old at a funeral" is condescending? It is roughly the same as "quiet now, the grown ups are speaking.". "Best interests" I've never believed in Communism, It has always seemed to be complete rubbish to me, from a theoretical, economical, and practical standpoint. I do believe that the fall of communism has left a gaping hole in some western democracies, as it would seem that after almost 100 years of ideological dichotomy, the argument "Communism failed, capitalism won, therefore unabridged capitalism must necessarily be a good thing" seems to be valid. I disagree. My main complaint is that in some western democracies, politics seems to be acting as a power unto itself, and in that sense, I see little difference to any totalitarian scheme, except that the totalitarians may be substituted with fresh ones with every general election. Combine the almost universal belief by each voter that he or she pays too much tax, and that a national debt should somehow magically disappear, possibly from revenue raised from the other voters who pay too litte, or curtailing all benefits and subsidies to any person or sector which contributes less than they benefit, combine that childish view with politicians who pander precisely to this ideology and things aren't likely to turn out to anyone's best interest. I don't claim to have a solution, I do claim to see a dangerous trend. I am reminded of Harry Tuttle's line in Brazil: "Happiness, we're all in it together".

"that when the population has voted there are still ways and means to ignore that vote. " But after every general election there is a winning party and losing parties.
The losing parties continue in every way possible to promote their ideas, solutions and policies: they do not simply give up then go and sit quietly in a corner. Nobody describes that as whining and squealing?
That is democracy in action.

	Quote:	Phos
	You know when you guys get personal, I smell blood and it indicates to me you don't have much of a point to defend. I do dig in if you persist at it. Now see if you are capable of having an honest debate without attacking people personally. Do your job properly MOD!

But in reality it's a "discussion thread" which doesn't really have to come to any point or decision. People explore possibilities, experiences and scenarios, and shouldn't be ridiculed if they don't dance to your tune of defending some pre-determined point. Plus I guess that constant pushing pisses people off because it in itself derails the discussion with pointless posturing and nitpicking.

Most people (well, Brits in this case) are just speaking from their own experience and/or gut feeling based on their cultural and ancestral roots.

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	Oh, that's not your point at all. You tried to get personal and led to mob me. I'm not sure you really have the maturity to handle an open discussion, as you resort to that, MOD!

If maturity was a mandatory qualification to post here then many of us would be gone

	Quote:	Phos
	Hey look, I messed around a bit, to a point I might have lost track of things. But I would need DNA proof before admitting anything like that. Will you folks stop trying to derail the thread and get back on topic please? I'm done with the personal line of questioning, thank you.

Indeed

	Quote:	Blueangel
	What you have seen me do throughout the pages of this thread, is wear my heart on my sleeve. This really matters to me and to millions of other people. It's had a huge impact on my life for a year now, and will continue to do so for years to come. This result is affecting every financial decision I make, and has put elements of my future on hold indefinitely. This isn't just a talking point. It's real and it's having a massive impact, so when someone comes flitting along saying we've all been proved wrong in out beliefs, I have every right to ask for a frame of reference and evidence other than Fox News. When hate crime is rocketing in my home country, I have every right to refute the words of people who say otherwise yet have no evidence to prove it. When a person gives nothing of themselves to a debate, yet seeks to disrupt, antagonise and ridicule others, they become just a noise. In this particular debate, Phos has behaved like a hyperactive 3yr old at a funeral.

And so you think Brexit, EU and this thread is about you. But its not. People instinctly know its about two conflicting visions for the future of Europe They have every right to prefer one or the other. Its not about your personal inconvenience, which you need to come to terms with.

All that goo, by the way, is wearing your heart on your sleeves.

It's not at all a funeral, its a joyous divorce after decades of a miserable relationship, AFAIC.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	marton
	"that when the population has voted there are still ways and means to ignore that vote. " But after every general election there is a winning party and losing parties. The losing parties continue in every way possible to promote their ideas, solutions and policies: they do not simply give up then go and sit quietly in a corner. Nobody describes that as whining and squealing? That is democracy in action.

I agree fully, this is the nature of a democracy. I don't expect or wish anything different.

The hypothetical "Well, if May never triggers article 50, then it won't happen." camp is doing a different thing, wouldn't you agree? Even aside from the "any port in a storm" aspect, the turmoil and uncertainty that the population and the markets are experiencing is hardly going to disappear by ignoring it via a procedural loophole.

I don't believe I used the terms "whining" or "squealing", if you have an issue with Phos' word choice please take that matter up with him.

	Quote:	Phos
	And so you think Brexit, EU and this thread is about you. But its not. People instinctly know its about two conflicting visions for the future of Europe They have every right to prefer one or the other. Its not about your personal inconvenience, which you need to come to terms with.

Nope, I think the general motivation for voting for the man on the street is how something will directly affect themselves and their immediate circle.

Maybe if you have a business which spans the EU and is subject to the set up and rules, etc., you start considering the "future vision" but even then you are only considering it as far as your business and perhaps the security of your workforce.

Personal inconvenience or at least the perception of it is pretty much at the forefront of peoples minds at the ballot box.

[marton]

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	I agree fully, this is the nature of a democracy. I don't expect or wish anything different. The hypothetical "Well, if May never triggers article 50, then it won't happen." camp is doing a different thing, wouldn't you agree? Even aside from the "any port in a storm" aspect, the turmoil and uncertainty that the population and the markets are experiencing is hardly going to disappear by ignoring it via a procedural loophole. I don't believe I used the terms "whining" or "squealing", if you have an issue with Phos' word choice please take that matter up with him.

"I don't believe I used the terms "whining" or "squealing"" This is an open forum so when posting, even when replying to a post, I do not feel constrained to limit my comments to be simply about the content from any single poster.

"The hypothetical..." Well it is a valid point that the referendum was advisory, not legally binding.
Whatever people say or do not say the elephant in the room is there will continue to be turmoil and uncertainty until article 50 is triggered - sadly turmoil and uncertainty is also likely to continue after that unless May comes up with a clear strategy that is aligned with the EU

	Quote:	marton
	"I don't believe I used the terms "whining" or "squealing"" This is an open forum so when posting, even when replying to a post, I do not feel constrained to limit my comments to be simply about the content from any single poster. "The hypothetical..." Well it is a valid point that the referendum was advisory, not legally binding. Whatever people say or do not say the elephant in the room is there will continue to be turmoil and uncertainty until article 50 - sadly turmoil and uncertainty is also likely to continue after that unless May comes up with a clear strategy that is aligned with the EU

There is sure uncertainty, but your comment is very typical of the negative reaction to BREXIT. When you say "sadly it's likely to continue unless...." it gives the impression that we're all doomed, when in fact we're not. From what May has done so far it's positive in the news. She is making sure everything happens so far. But between each of her actions, the press is peddling negative news. There was something about getting rid of defeatism in England. This is a very English trait and clearly to the fore at the moment.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	marton
	"I don't believe I used the terms "whining" or "squealing"" This is an open forum so when posting, even when replying to a post, I do not feel constrained to limit my comments to be simply about the content from any single poster. "The hypothetical..." Well it is a valid point that the referendum was advisory, not legally binding. Whatever people say or do not say the elephant in the room is there will continue to be turmoil and uncertainty until article 50 - sadly turmoil and uncertainty is also likely to continue after that unless May comes up with a clear strategy that is aligned with the EU

When you mix or confuse my posts and arguments with those of Phos you are doing me, Phos, yourself and everyone else a disservice in the sense that your argument becomes anything other than a reasoned debate.

Machinery's Handbook, revised 23rd edition (happens to be on my desk) contains errors, oversights, and misses updated information. Therefore you, Marton, are incorrect about Brexit, debate, politics any anything else that I can't be bothered to actually respond to. This is a convenient, but crap argument.

In January 2013, Cameron said:

	Quote:
	And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in-or-out choice to stay in the EU on these new terms; or come out altogether. It will be an in/out referendum.

This is when the alarm bells should have been going off. The house is now on fire, and the alarm bells have become nothing other than a distraction. It boggles the mind to think that any leader could possibly be so bone headed.

[CorsebouTheReturn]

Brexit is extremely revealing...

-See how politicians are treating the people and their opinion's.

-How losers, erm I mean the one who are against brexit* are acting after the results. Acting like children being forced to do something unwillingly.

*who WERE against, because the vote is over and a democratic decision has been taken!

-How the alleged "friends" in other countries are ready to screw their alleged "ex-friend" GB. See how many negative and extremely negative comments are being made nowadays. Such as Sarkozy's ex-president trying to get dumb french votes by blaming migrants problem on British. British people have voted, a democratic decision was made. Everyone should accept that and embrace it, making it work for everyone. Well no, let's backstab GB and and its people. Or as the Spaniard political vultures trying to feed on Gibraltar' situation.

-How people are poor minded about it all. Calling racists the voters, now some are poorly and discreetly admitting it was not all about that and there might have been other reasons at stake.

-How Politicians hate losing their power and are backstabbing losers. Well done Mr Farage, absolutely loving how you are talking to them. Shame there are not many others to treat them the same way.

-How young generations are negative and sad about the whole brexit thing. Surely inherited from current and older generations... The decision has been taken, they should focus on how to make it better and have positive attitude toward it all. No! Many are focusing on how it's sad, racist, etc...

-How people are acting on fear and nonsense. Pound losing value? let me laugh, first it's mostly on market rates, something that 95% of the population never gets, they always get plummeted by currency exchanges. Second, the GBP was always very high compared to other Europeans currency, yet I never heard complaining a British who thanks to that high value could afford easily houses elsewhere than in UK.
Especially that most of the complaints where about losing purchase abroad for holidays abroad... So sad, some people will lose a few pounds due to that massive economical disaster, but will happily buy a 8GBP disgusting sandwich from Ryanair


Let's not debate about brexit anymore, democratic decision has been made. Let's all focus on making that an opportunity for everyone, instead of vomiting your emotions, ok?

PS: I do admire some of the British people and once again was very surprised by the voting outcome, I did not expect that. As an European I can see it's not against other humans but against a system so I have respect for that and I am focusing on making that event an opportunity for all. Something we should all do, roast beefs, frogs, spaniards, brots...

	Quote:
	Nope, I think the general motivation for voting for the man on the street is how something will directly affect themselves and their immediate circle. Maybe if you have a business which spans the EU and is subject to the set up and rules, etc., you start considering the "future vision" but even then you are only considering it as far as your business and perhaps the security of your workforce. Personal inconvenience or at least the perception of it is pretty much at the forefront of peoples minds at the ballot box.

The sentiment I commonly hear is that people who voted don't have the proper mind to vote, therefore the results should be annulled. Plenty of allegations they were deceived, or uneducated backward racists in the backwoods who crawled from under the woodworks. Its just pure disdain for democracy from a side that lost the argument. Its claiming that some pigs are more equal than others. Its a dangerous elitist attitude that deserves all ridicule, and which I am pleased to see fail.

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	The sentiment I commonly hear is that people who voted don't have the proper mind to vote, therefore the results should be annulled. Plenty of allegations they were deceived, or uneducated backward racists in the backwoods who crawled from under the woodworks. Its just pure disdain for democracy from a side that lost the argument. Its claiming that some pigs are more equal than others. Its a dangerous elitist attitude that deserves all ridicule, and which I am pleased to see fail.

"The sentiment I commonly hear" Source please.

	Quote:	Phos
	The sentiment I commonly hear is that people who voted don't have the proper mind to vote, therefore the results should be annulled. Plenty of allegations they were deceived, or uneducated backward racists in the backwoods who crawled from under the woodworks. Its just pure disdain for democracy from a side that lost the argument. Its claiming that some pigs are more equal than others. Its a dangerous elitist attitude that deserves all ridicule, and which I am pleased to see fail.

I'm one of those that thinks that the campaign on both sides was woefully inadequate. The toxic hatred which found its way into the mainstream media, who then spun it around and used it to sell papers was eye-wateringly shameful.

If it's to be a proper democratic vote, the information available to the voting public needs to be as impartial, clean and accurate as possible. Yes, there can be opinions from all sides and discussion, and you will never cut down all of the spin and scandal but I felt this campaign was so toxic it was damn near impossible to make an even mildly informed choice.

They were treated as though they were "uneducated" which is a further insult to the voters. As if they couldn't handle dry, clean facts and figures. Everything had to be dragged down to personal insults and ridicule (Boris hanging by his nether regions over the Thames or Cameron's pig-gate. FFS!).

The proof of the scaremongering has come out on both sides since the vote in that the Armageddon each side was bellowing would happen to Joe Public hasn't so far happened. At least yet.

If I were to sum up the campaigns in one word it would be - "embarrassing".

[marton]

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	When you mix or confuse my posts and arguments with those of Phos you are doing me, Phos, yourself and everyone else a disservice in the sense that your argument becomes anything other than a reasoned debate. Machinery's Handbook, revised 23rd edition (happens to be on my desk) contains errors, oversights, and misses updated information. Therefore you, Marton, are incorrect about Brexit, debate, politics any anything else that I can't be bothered to actually respond to. This is a convenient, but crap argument. In January 2013, Cameron said: This is when the alarm bells should have been going off. The house is now on fire, and the alarm bells have become nothing other than a distraction. It boggles the mind to think that any leader could possibly be so bone headed.

"Machinery's Handbook" Now you are doing me, Phos, yourself and everyone else a disservice

"mix or confuse my posts and arguments" You seem to be the only one confused; everybody else knew who made those comments

[CorsebouTheReturn]

	Quote:	marton
	"The sentiment I commonly hear" Source please.

My British colleagues (true!)
We still like each other (at least officially, or at least I do like them despite their opinion and poor losers attitude)

[marton]

	Quote:	CorsebouTheReturn
	Brexit is extremely revealing... -See how politicians are treating the people and their opinion's. -How losers, erm I mean the one who are against brexit* are acting after the results. Acting like children being forced to do something unwillingly. *who WERE against, because the vote is over and a democratic decision has been taken! -How the alleged "friends" in other countries are ready to screw their alleged "ex-friend" GB. See how many negative and extremely negative comments are being made nowadays. Such as Sarkozy's ex-president trying to get dumb french votes by blaming migrants problem on British. British people have voted, a democratic decision was made. Everyone should accept that and embrace it, making it work for everyone. Well no, let's backstab GB and and its people. Or as the Spaniard political vultures trying to feed on Gibraltar' situation. -How people are poor minded about it all. Calling racists the voters, now some are poorly and discreetly admitting it was not all about that and there might have been other reasons at stake. -How Politicians hate losing their power and are backstabbing losers. Well done Mr Farage, absolutely loving how you are talking to them. Shame there are not many others to treat them the same way. -How young generations are negative and sad about the whole brexit thing. Surely inherited from current and older generations... The decision has been taken, they should focus on how to make it better and have positive attitude toward it all. No! Many are focusing on how it's sad, racist, etc... -How people are acting on fear and nonsense. Pound losing value? let me laugh, first it's mostly on market rates, something that 95% of the population never gets, they always get plummeted by currency exchanges. Second, the GBP was always very high compared to other Europeans currency, yet I never heard complaining a British who thanks to that high value could afford easily houses elsewhere than in UK. Especially that most of the complaints where about losing purchase abroad for holidays abroad... So sad, some people will lose a few pounds due to that massive economical disaster, but will happily buy a 8GBP disgusting sandwich from Ryanair Let's not debate about brexit anymore, democratic decision has been made. Let's all focus on making that an opportunity for everyone, instead of vomiting your emotions, ok? PS: I do admire some of the British people and once again was very surprised by the voting outcome, I did not expect that. As an European I can see it's not against other humans but against a system so I have respect for that and I am focusing on making that event an opportunity for all. Something we should all do, roast beefs, frogs, spaniards, brots...

"like children being forced to do something unwillingly." but they are?
Just because the vote is over does not mean they change their views and opinions.
When the Tories won the last election do you believe Labour said "it is all over, let us put down our pens and go home".

"Let's all focus on making that an opportunity for everyone" Very jingoistic!
The reality is that you, me and 99.999% of the population will have zero influence and control over what happens next.

"Calling racists the voters" Cherry picking, this is not any sort of majority view; just propaganda to try and close down the ongoing debate.

	Quote:
	I'm one of those that thinks that the campaign on both sides was woefully inadequate. The toxic hatred which found its way into the mainstream media, who then spun it around and used it to sell papers was eye-wateringly shameful. If it's to be a proper democratic vote, the information available to the voting public needs to be as impartial, clean and accurate as possible. Yes, there can be opinions from all sides and discussion, and you will never cut down all of the spin and scandal but I felt this campaign was so toxic it was damn near impossible to make an even mildly informed choice. They were treated as though they were "uneducated" which is a further insult to the voters. As if they couldn't handle dry, clean facts and figures. Everything had to be dragged down to personal insults and ridicule (Boris hanging by his nether regions over the Thames or Cameron's pig-gate. FFS!). The proof of the scaremongering has come out on both sides since the vote in that the Armageddon each side was bellowing would happen to Joe Public hasn't so far happened. At least yet. If I were to sum up the campaigns in one word it would be - "embarrassing".

I agree with that. I actually fault Cameron for the whole thing. He proposed it as a choice for the country. Throughout his career, he has spoken out about EU encroachment. But then he turns around and behaves like a celebrity spokesman. I think the responsibility of his role was to ensure that he can provide the proper analysis and information for everybody to make an informed decision. But instead, he resorted to disinformation, and the Brexiters responded in kind.

What surprised me was how easily Cameron sold out, and that is in fact what happened. For me, this referendum was all about whether or not to sell out. All the threats were about economic propositions. I actually think there are higher values than cash flow. So when people voted despite being told they would be economically hurt, I admired it. It demonstrated integrity and character to choose principles over cash flow. I think some people have trouble understanding that.