The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Phos
	Doesn't sound like an extremist at all then. Sounds like a wise cat who isn't self-consumed by his own dogma.

To me he doesn't seem wise. I would say that he is as self consumed in his own dogma as any other actor on the stage.

I wouldn't like to have to spend much time in an enclosed space with him.

Isn't it time to stop responding to sheer and blatant trolling?

	Quote:	Phos
	How so? Farage is quite popular. See here: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Do...016-charts.pdf Are you sure you're not driving a personal or political agenda with your mod privileges?

Popularity -- is that now the criterion for a knighthood? Arise, Sir Ant and Sir Dec!

Unlike you, I have British citizenship and a direct interest in the outcome of this process. Unlike you, I haven't expressed a view for or against the referendum result.

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	To me he doesn't seem wise. I would say that he is as self consumed in his own dogma as any other actor on the stage. I wouldn't like to have to spend much time in an enclosed space with him.

I wouldn't call on him for personal entertainment, or for social outings. But definitely the kind of person I would want to put on point to go up against adversity.

Perhaps its an easy vantage point from his underdog position to shoot at the incompetencies of the establishment. I think he's done that brilliantly, evidenced by the results he's achieved. I think he's led his party and ideological adherents well. Certainly much better than Cameron and Corbyn theirs, undisputedly.

Although I wouldn't necessarily think he is particularly fittest to govern a country.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Phos
	I wouldn't call on him for personal entertainment, or for social outings. But definitely the kind of person I would want to put on point to go up against adversity. Perhaps its an easy vantage point from his underdog position to shoot at the incompetencies of the establishment. I think he's done that brilliantly, evidenced by the results he's achieved. I think he's led his party and ideological adherents well. Certainly much better than Cameron and Corbyn theirs, undisputedly. Although I wouldn't necessarily think he is particularly fittest to govern a country.

So honesty isn't a big issue for you? Out of EU at all costs, whoever however, just leave?

I think he would be shite at leadership. He is strikes me as exactly the kind of guy that is the first to go swimming when some group does the "lifeboat" exercise.

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	So honesty isn't a big issue for you? Out of EU at all costs, whoever however, just leave? I think he would be shite at leadership. He is strikes me as exactly the kind of guy that is the first to go swimming when some group does the "lifeboat" exercise.

To be honest, I think the EU should have been accountable all along. They have just about admitted their disdain for the will of the people and national interests in various ways. In that form, yeah, I'd like to see them reform or disappear. Brexit has just been the only signal they've responded to until now. That's their own doing.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Phos
	To be honest, I think the EU should have been accountable all along. They have just about admitted their disdain for the will of the people and national interests in various ways. In that form, yeah, I'd like to see them reform or disappear. Brexit has just been the only signal they've responded to until now. That's their own doing.

And the first question which I posed?

I am aware that you think the EU is the boogey monster.

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	And the first question which I posed? I am aware that you think the EU is the boogey monster.

You mean as for the UK leaving at any cost?

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	So honesty isn't a big issue for you? Out of EU at all costs, whoever however, just leave?

I think most of the payload of Brexit has already been delivered in regards to the EU. Its opened up topics they weren't willing to talk about before. First job is done.

The execution of Article 50 is something the current government will now have to delicately execute. I don't think this should be done haphazardly. First and foremost, the country is still divided, even within Theresa May's cabinet. These divisions will manifest themselves in the execution of exiting, and hurt the country. It really needs to be done very tightly within the cabinet and the civil services.

Theresa May still has a job to lead. She needs to align her Chancellor, her ministers and civil services along a unified and cohesive line. She may need to purge some of them if necessary. She then needs to get the rest of the country on board. I think this is more important than executing Article 20 compulsively. So not necessarily at any cost, but yes, they need to make good on Brexit.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Phos
	You mean as for the UK leaving at any cost?

No Phos, I meant the first question, the bit between the first character in my post earlier, right up to and including the question mark.

I'll repeat it for you here:

So honesty isn't a big issue for you?

You don't need to answer both questions seperately, they are identical.

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	So honesty isn't a big issue for you?

OOOHHH, I kept reading honestly in your question.

I see. In regards to Farage.

Remember that Farage was kicked out of the Leave camp. Those promises about NHS and £350M were not made by Farage, they were made by those in the Leave campaign. Other than that, were there other areas you presumed Farage was dishonest about?

Sorry, was that your question?

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Phos
	OOOHHH, I kept reading honestly in your question. I see. In regards to Farage. Remember that Farage was kicked out of the Leave camp. Those promises about NHS and £350M were not made by Farage, they were made by those in the Leave campaign. Other than that, were there other areas you presumed Farage was dishonest about? Sorry, was that your question?

I'll ask it a third time:

So honesty isn't a big issue for you?

Of course it is.

Both campaigns were quite dishonest. Even the IMF later effectively acknowledge they were exaggerating or bluffing.

The way I see it, the referendum was down to a simple YES or NO question. Along the course of the debate, they can choose whatever supporting points they decide to. In this case, dishonest ones. But voters do not vote on those supporting issues. They simply say YES or NO to the referendum question itself - on whether to stay or leave in the EU. That is still what holds regardless of the course of the debate.

We have exactly the same problem with lying politicians in the 'states.

[JagWaugh]

	Quote:	Phos
	Of course it is. Both campaigns were quite dishonest. Even the IMF later effectively acknowledge they were exaggerating or bluffing. The way I see it, the referendum was down to a simple YES or NO question. Along the course of the debate, they can choose whatever supporting points they decide to. In this case, dishonest ones. But voters do not vote on those supporting issues. They simply say YES or NO to the referendum question itself - on whether to stay or leave in the EU. That is still what holds regardless of the course of the debate. We have exactly the same problem with lying politicians in the 'states.

So, are you of the opinion that Farage is not a liar, or his that his lies are acceptable, as they serve some higher aim?

	Quote:	JagWaugh
	So, are you of the opinion that Farage is not a liar, or his that his lies are acceptable, as they serve some higher aim?

At the moment, I am not aware of a particular lie he made. Tell me. The thing about lies is that they eventually get found out, and demand payment on their own. I couldn't possibly track every lie made, nor try to attain justice for all of them. I leave that to divine providence, unless it is something I can deal with right there and then. They all lie, don't they?

	Quote:	Phos
	The execution of Article 20 is something the current government will now have to delicately execute. I don't think this should be done haphazardly. First and foremost, the country is still divided, even within Theresa May's cabinet. These divisions will manifest themselves in the execution of exiting, and hurt the country. It really needs to be done very tightly within the cabinet and the civil services. Theresa May still has a job to lead. She needs to align her Chancellor, her ministers and civil services along a unified and cohesive line. She may need to purge some of them if necessary. She then needs to get the rest of the country on board. I think this is more important than executing Article 20 compulsively. So not necessarily at any cost, but yes, they need to make good on Brexit.

Article 20? Is that sort of withdrawing 40% of the way, just to see what it might be like? Sounds unsafe to me.

[marton]

	Quote:	CorsebouTheReturn
	There's a difference between mixing with EU people and restricting migration... One can work in a given place and not liking it or realizing its problems. As for the MP thing, they're representing their countries within the EU. Again, whats the problem? Do you want only pro EU people in the EU? Sounds like a bit too much to me...

"Do you want only pro EU people in the EU?" Do you want only pro Leave people in this thread?

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	Really? I didn't take Farage to be anti-Royalist. I thought he was for all things uniquely British; CoE and Royalty amongst them. I associated Republicanism more with the Labour Party. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So this is one of the things I appreciate about all this, as I do have a penchant for British culture. Not to say I like ALL Brits. Many are pretty thick. Just things about its culture and history. Looking forward to see it bloom after Brexit.

"Not to say I like ALL Brits. Many are pretty thick." Ah, from the man who is against personal comments

"Just things about its culture and history. " Lost the war of Independence with the USA; that was a big mistake.

	Quote:	marton
	"Just things about its culture and history. " Lost the war of Independence with the USA; that was a big mistake.

The mistake here is still not getting over it after more than two centuries.

[marton]

	Quote:	CorsebouTheReturn
	hu? So? He's not having a preferential treatment but same as others, where's the problem? Also I did not make him the focus of the debate, only that he was one of the rare to fight against other politicians. You seem to have problem because I used "rich" referring to other European MPs... A bit simplistic term to refer to their attitude of "we're better than the dumb citizen, we are ignoring the life outside our golden lifestyle". Even that might be not very accurate but that's more or less the idea. I don't care about Mr Farage salary and the likes, it's not 20min or dailymail here!

Indeed; you used the term "rich" and I simply pointed out that Farage is an equally rich EU politician so you using the term "rich" to disparage these EU politicians equally disparages Farage.

You also described these as passive, rich, arrogant, pedant...politicians in the EU.
We have established Farage is also rich!

It would also be hard to find a more passive EU politician than Farage!

Nigel Farage has the lowest voting attendance record of any active MEP in the European Parliament. This places him 745th out of 746 MEPs from across the different EU countries on the register. The 746th is Brian Crowley, a paralysed MEP in Ireland who has never voted, according to the register.

So what does he fight with these passive, rich, arrogant, pedant EU politicians about; their choice of aftershave`?

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	Its not intentional at all on my part, as I don't know nor care what riles them up or doesn't. I'll just make a point and challenge theirs. That is what a discussion is about. ...

	Quote:	marton
	"Just things about its culture and history. " Lost the war of Independence with the USA; that was a big mistake.

	Quote:	Phos
	The mistake here is still not getting over it after more than two centuries.

Interesting how you feed and sustain a discussion without any personal comments