The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	"Of course if the scheme becomes insolvent you won't get as much as promised." Same as any pension scheme, nothing new here

Only a defined benefit pension schemes come with ANY promise at all, a defined contribution comes with no promise whatsoever, the beneficiaries will receive whatever their investment 'pot' produces. If that investment was with an insurance company charges will have taken care of any investment increases. Having said that, my UK pension is worth more than 11 times the amount of gross investment made. Had I not moved it 100% to fundsmith then we would be looking at less than 5 times.....

[marton]

Quite liked this quote in the Guardian reader's comments section "Brexit;the most momentous decision ever taken in post war Britain and one which nobody can be arsed to do anything about."

[Phos]

	Quote:	marton
	The largest one of mine is also a final salary scheme; I was voluntary /compulsory retired at 52. Came to Switzerland a year later and worked here until I was 71 and retired twice more during that time, once entirely voluntarily!

Errr... Marton, what are these (52 and 71) in units of?

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	Errr... Marton, what are these (52 and 71) in units of?

euros, of course,
do try to keep up at the back of the class there or we will send you to sit with Boris

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	Quite liked this quote in the Guardian reader's comments section "Brexit;the most momentous decision ever taken in post war Britain and one which nobody can be arsed to do anything about."

Hohum, perhaps because the Grauniad readers finally realised it's not as bad as they feared & the UK might actually do better out of the EU.
With the EU's screwing Apple, the UK will become one hell of an attractive tax haven.......... You could not make this up

[Phos]

	Quote:	marton
	euros, of course, do try to keep up at the back of the class there or we will send you to sit with Boris

Now if those are in human years, sir, then from now on I would have to pay you more respect. But if they were in dog or cat years....

[marton]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Only a defined benefit pension schemes come with ANY promise at all, a defined contribution comes with no promise whatsoever, the beneficiaries will receive whatever their investment 'pot' produces. If that investment was with an insurance company charges will have taken care of any investment increases. Having said that, my UK pension is worth more than 11 times the amount of gross investment made. Had I not moved it 100% to fundsmith then we would be looking at less than 5 times.....

I take it you are not in the Fundsmith Emerging Equities Trust
Or as they say "vote with your FEET"!

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	Now if those are in human years, sir, then from now on I would have to pay you more respect. But if they were in dog or cat years....

If you want to pay something then a few hundred francs monthly to cover my depleted pension would be be acceptable

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	I take it you are not in the Fundsmith Emerging Equities Trust

Over the next 25 years FEET will kick arse of the main fund. The shares have a PE 50% higher, are more volatile, less liquid however are GROWING 10% MORE per year compound than the big fund. Those pesky companies were founded on average in the 1950's so 40 years younger than the main fund. To date my investment in FEET is under 5% of my investment in the main fund, I currently have plenty of cash on hand & that will get invested in FEET on the next market collapse. Collapse's happen like clockwork, 4 to date since I retired on 30 Sept 2014.
Remember the market is a voting machine short term, but a weighing machine long term. I am substantially better off in CHF / USD / GBP 23 months after retiring.... OK I have done 17 days work in 23 months, but that was for fun, my expenses have also increased as I am getting married in 2 weeks time, trying to get my fiancée to give up work completely as life is too short when you both mid 50's, it's time to live not work.

EDIT,

You edited your post, I will indeed 'vote with my FEET' over the next 5 years. Originally I invited about 1-2% of my overall investment in the main fund in FEET as I realised it would take time, The approximate 50% underperformance to date now makes it a much better opportunity going forward. As I said before when I was taking a huge stake in Apple, I want it to fall not rise whilst I build my stake, the price I paid for my existing holding is irrelevant.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	marton
	The largest one of mine is also a final salary scheme; I was voluntary /compulsory retired at 52. Came to Switzerland a year later and worked here until I was 71 and retired twice more during that time, once entirely voluntarily!

I paid into mine from 23-38 then took voluntary redundancy. It was a 3 level plan where you could choose how much to pay based upon your age group, then have AVCs on top. I decided to go in at the highest level right from the start because we were working 20+hrs overtime per week for most of my time there.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	As it's a final salary scheme, the market has no effect on it's performance, your benefits are defined & thats what you will get & not a penny more. Of course if the scheme becomes insolvent you won't get as much as promised.

That's what I thought, but the Anglo-French company I worked for was bought out by an American company after I'd left, then was bought out again by an even bigger American company a few years ago. Somehow, on both occassions, my pension got a significant boost. I don't pretend to understand the workings of it (that's why I use independent financial advisors), I just know that it's still very competitive.

I'm nowhere near some of my friends, particularly my brother who retired at 51 with a 6 figure lump sum and a hefty 5 figure redundancy payment per year for life (local authority pension), or my closest female friend who is also 51 and has approx 78 days left in the police before she retires.

I don't like pensions and insurance per se. It's just legalised, acceptable gambling and I much prefer bricks and mortar.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	marton
	and "The foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, has suggested that Britain could retain membership of the EU with restrictions on freedom of movement but European diplomats have responded by calling it a “pipe dream”."

I predict that in 3yrs time, Davis, Johnson and Gove will be smoking 60 a day, own shares in JD and be making, the then 75yr old, Keith Richards look like a fresh faced teenager.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Somehow, on both occassions, my pension got a significant boost.

I suspect that was a transfer out value, which would have grown significantly as interest rates have been falling for roughly 25 years.
Defined benefits are valued by the cost of providing the pension for your expected lifetime index linked. When long bonds paid out 12% the cost of providing a pension was vastly cheaper than today.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Somehow, on both occassions, my pension got a significant boost. I don't pretend to understand the workings of it (that's why I use independent financial advisors), I just know that it's still very competitive.

If you quit, only a portion of what your employer paid in is paid out to you (4% or 5% for each year you're older than 24/25, so you don't get your full share before age 45 or 50), and without interest accounted for IIRC.

In case of a takeover, merger or company split however, the assets are split as if the Vorsorgekasse had been dissolved, that results in a nice increase in credit for all if the Kasse has been well funded, and an overproportionate increase of their share for the younger employees.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	If you quit, only a portion of what your employer paid in is paid out to you (4% or 5% for each year you're older than 24/25, so you don't get your full share before age 45 or 50), and without interest accounted for IIRC. In case of a takeover, merger or company split however, the assets are split as if the Vorsorgekasse had been dissolved, that results in a nice increase in credit for all if the Kasse has been well funded, and an overproportionate increase of their share for the younger employees.

That may have been true in CH many years ago, it's certainly not been true for the last 20 years.
It's never been the case in the UK for defined benefits scheme, as the employers contribution will vary. Due to good performance in the 1980's many companies took pension holidays as they believed their future liabilities were funded.

[Reb77Br]

Watch Jeremy Hunt laugh when asked if Brexit will ensure more funding for the NHS

The Secretary of State for Health (who supported Remain - source) smiles broadly when asked if the £350m for the NHS was discussed at a recent cabinet meeting and later laughs, saying money being freed up for the NHS as a result of Brexit is "some way off yet".

Oh Shit, Brexit | Full Frontal with Samantha Bee
This short comedy routine includes a clip of a woman from "BBC2, 'Meet the Ukippers'", which, as it turns out, is also on YouTube:
Meet the Ukippers (haven't watched this yet, must save it up as a special treat)

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	That may have been true in CH many years ago, it's certainly not been true for the last 20 years. It's never been the case in the UK for defined benefits scheme, as the employers contribution will vary. Due to good performance in the 1980's many companies took pension holidays as they believed their future liabilities were funded.

Current Freizügigkeitsgesetz art. 17:
"Bei Austritt aus der Vorsorgeeinrichtung hat die versicherte Person zumindest Anspruch auf die eingebrachten Eintrittsleistungen samt Zinsen sowie auf die von ihr während der Beitragsdauer geleisteten Beiträge samt einem Zuschlag von 4 Prozent pro Altersjahr ab dem 20. Altersjahr, höchstens aber von 100 Prozent. Das Alter ergibt sich aus der Differenz zwischen dem Kalenderjahr und dem Geburtsjahr."

The minimum you're due is what you brought plus interest, plus what you paid in plus an additional 4% of the latter for every year you're older than 20 up to 100%. Notice that what you paid in while at the current company doesn't earn interest. Ok, the countdown starts at age 20 but the gist is the same.

Granted, this is the minimum, the respective Pensionskasse can give better conditions. However doing so brings a disadvantage to the other insurees(word?) as less remains in the pot for them once you leave, so rather few may go that way. If the Vorsorgekasse is dissolve though, e.g. due to a takeover, the full pot has to distributed.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Current Freizügigkeitsgesetz art. 17: "Bei Austritt aus der Vorsorgeeinrichtung hat die versicherte Person zumindest Anspruch auf die eingebrachten Eintrittsleistungen samt Zinsen sowie auf die von ihr während der Beitragsdauer geleisteten Beiträge samt einem Zuschlag von 4 Prozent pro Altersjahr ab dem 20. Altersjahr, höchstens aber von 100 Prozent. Das Alter ergibt sich aus der Differenz zwischen dem Kalenderjahr und dem Geburtsjahr." The minimum you're due is what you brought plus interest, plus what you paid in plus an additional 4% of the latter for every year you're older than 20 up to 100%. Notice that what you paid in while at the current company doesn't earn interest. Ok, the countdown starts at age 20 but the gist is the same. Granted, this is the minimum, the respective Pensionskasse can give better conditions. However doing so brings a disadvantage to the other insurees(word?) as less remains in the pot for them once you leave, so rather few may go that way. If the Vorsorgekasse is dissolve though, e.g. due to a takeover, the full pot has to distributed.

Well every year I worked in CH I got a statement of my fund being both employee & employer contributions less insurance costs. The insurance costs were a couple of percent in any case. The statement always showed the transfer value & when I left all of the funds were transferred in full.

Swiss law dictates how much is paid in based on on age (7- 18%), the employer has to pay at least 50% on salary on earnings between 24,675 - 84,600. There is no requirement to pay any pension contribution on earnings outside that range & it's quite normal that's all that is paid.

There is no requirement to pay a pension for someone aged under 25. Between age 25-34 the company only needs to contribute 3.5% so I don't know what your 4% refers to as after disability insurance costs there will be significantly less than 3.5% of employers contribution.

This link in English may help https://www.axa-winterthur.ch/SiteCo...orsorge_en.pdf

[Urs Max]

The 4% are the minimum mandated by law. Had you read the quote or its french version you'd know already.

Of course your PK-Auszug would consist of multiple lines, your and the employers contributions among them. But by law only a portion thereof contributes to the Freizügigkeitsleistung (FZL), the money you take with you once you leave the company. Only in a very limited number of cases, including a takeover, do you typically get your full claim credited to you.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	The 4% are the minimum mandated by law. Had you read the quote or its french version you'd know already. Of course your PK-Auszug would consist of multiple lines, your and the employers contributions among them. But by law only a portion thereof contributes to the Freizügigkeitsleistung (FZL), the money you take with you once you leave the company. Only in a very limited number of cases, including a takeover, do you typically get your full claim credited to you.

Well I got the full credit from 2 different schemes as did everybody else I know who moved companies. I can think of at least 25 people from different companies so I think it's more typical than you think.

However this would make no difference to a Defined benefits scheme, of which I have never come across in CH.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I can honestly say, of all my friends, family and acquaintances, I can count on one hand the number of people who would disagree with Adam Hills' exceptionally eloquent assessment of Farage. And don't even dream of dissing Adam Hills. He's firmly in the Louis Theroux club of thinking women's top totty. How does this work? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNeWQlpjso

Really, when are they going to learn?

Oh look, it's another risqué comedian poking fun at Nigel Farrage. Who'd have thought? Or UKIP, or how about that most dangerous of topics, The Daily Mail?

Do they not see, this is why you füçking lost Brexit! You're totally out of touch! It's state sponsored comedy on the BBC and Channel 4, where back slapping comedians peddle out their politically correct agenda with cheap gags about UKIP. It's boring, it's easy, and no one cares for your smug, moralising shite.

The majority of the nation doesn't share your left of centre sanctimonious view. Please, up your game.