The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	Yes but (whatever your political feelings might be) the fact they can do this and the Brexiters wave their union jacks without being gunned down and their families being put on a watch-list is part and parcel of the healthy society which has evolved in our part of the world. Over history it's been the protesters (peaceful or otherwise) which have contributed to major changes and upheavals good and bad. As soon as you start chipping away at that, it's a worrying step backwards.

Just like trolling, isn't it?

	Quote:	Phos
	Just like trolling, isn't it?

I've never heard peaceful protests being compared to trolling before . But hey, it's "anything-goes Friday" again...

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Yes but (whatever your political feelings might be) the fact they can do this and the Brexiters wave their union jacks without being gunned down and their families being put on a watch-list is part and parcel of the healthy society which has evolved in our part of the world. Over history it's been the protesters (peaceful or otherwise) which have contributed to major changes and upheavals good and bad. As soon as you start chipping away at that, it's a worrying step backwards.

Of course. Let them protest all they want.

But I think we also need to be honest and compare like with like.

If the vote had gone the other way and Leave people had decided to hijack some event that typically sees lots of EU flags, I'm sure we'd be hearing no end to stories about bitter old white men being afraid of losing power and resorting to increasingly meaningless forms of protest and bla bla.

It just shows that the Remain campaign has no ability to introspect that they don't see that they're putting themselves in exactly the same position.

	Quote:	amogles
	Of course. Let them protest all they want. But I think we also need to be honest and compare like with like. If the vote had gone the other way and Leave people had decided to hijack some event that typically sees lots of EU flags, I'm sure we'd be hearing no end to stories about bitter old white men being afraid of losing power and resorting to increasingly meaningless forms of protest and bla bla. It just shows that the Remain campaign has no ability to introspect that they don't see that they're putting themselves in exactly the same position.

Whichever way the vote went I think the protests and presence of the "disgruntled other side" is necessary. If the exit was clear and unimpeded with nobody putting up obstacles and questioning policy that's bad for everyone. It needs a voice with an opposite view to temper decisions and make it more appealing to a wider population.

Of course this applies the same if the vote had gone the other way. If the "disgruntled leavers" were ignored, dismissed and labelled bitter (or whatever the current Daily Mail insult-du-jour happens to be ) and advised to suck it up and don't moan that would have been almost half the population seriously unhappy and sidelined.

Not something you want when your election rolls around.

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	So the referendum result is the national consensus. He can also go around privately to different interests and form a consensus without involving trolls in the conversation.

"the referendum result is the national consensus" Simple Definition of consensus :an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group. The referendum was a majority decision.

"go around privately to different interests and form a consensus" true, but that would only be the consensus of the people he met, not a national consensus.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	"the referendum result is the national consensus" Simple Definition of consensus :an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group. The referendum was a majority decision. "go around privately to different interests and form a consensus" true, but that would only be the consensus of the people he met, not a national consensus.

Cant be difficult to predict what people want..... I don't see how this is so complicated.

Only the Swiss would vote to increase petrol prices & speeding fines.

[Cornerstone]

	Quote:	amogles
	Of course. Let them protest all they want. But I think we also need to be honest and compare like with like. If the vote had gone the other way and Leave people had decided to hijack some event that typically sees lots of EU flags, I'm sure we'd be hearing no end to stories about bitter old white men being afraid of losing power and resorting to increasingly meaningless forms of protest and bla bla. It just shows that the Remain campaign has no ability to introspect that they don't see that they're putting themselves in exactly the same position.

Exactly!!

[marton]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Cant be difficult to predict what people want..... I don't see how this is so complicated. Only the Swiss would vote to increase petrol prices & speeding fines.

"Cant be difficult to predict what people want....." Makes you wonder why countries have more than one political party if pleasing the people is so easy

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	"Cant be difficult to predict what people want....." Makes you wonder why countries have more than one political party if pleasing the people is so easy

Everybody wants a good deal for themselves....... not difficult to figure that out, people want whatever they can have for nothing as long as someone else pays for it.

	Quote:
	If the exit was clear and unimpeded with nobody putting up obstacles and questioning policy that's bad for everyone. It needs a voice with an opposite view to temper decisions and make it more appealing to a wider population.

Can you tell me if these are not true?
-The referendum was a decision, not a policy.
-Policies are set by the democratically elected government, not its opposition.
-Policies change. It can be changed by the government later, or a newly elected government.

	Quote:	Phos
	Can you tell me if these are not true? -The referendum was a decision, not a policy.

Referendum was a decision. I wasn't talking about the "decision", I was referring to any related policies in the run up to and aftermath of an exit.

	Quote:	Phos
	-Policies are set by the democratically elected government, not its opposition.

Yes, but the "democratically elected government" usually has an ear to the ground of what's going to win votes. A bit like the whole referendum saga which kicked everything off. Ironically.

	Quote:	Phos
	-Policies change. It can be changed by the government later, or a newly elected government.

Yes.

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	Can you tell me if these are not true? -The referendum was a decision, not a policy. -Policies are set by the democratically elected government, not its opposition. -Policies change. It can be changed by the government later, or a newly elected government.

In a democracy the job of the opposition is to challenge policy setting to ensure transparency; the policies are clearly defined and well founded.

The role of opposition in any democracy is to ask the right questions from the government and mandate government to reply to those questions honestly. This is the basic fulcrum on which democracy runs. Democracy by design has to ensure that all voices are heard and government responds adequately and timely.

[marton]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Everybody wants a good deal for themselves....... not difficult to figure that out, people want whatever they can have for nothing as long as someone else pays for it.

So the person who gets whatever for nothing is happy and the person who pays is not happy; the eternal dilemma and balancing act for Government.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	So the person who gets whatever for nothing is happy and the person who pays is not happy; the eternal dilemma and balancing act for Government.

Well 42% of the UK adult population receive more in benefits than they contribute & 50% of families receive considerably more than they pay. Hardly surprising that the vote was leave........

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Well 42% of the UK adult population receive more in benefits than they contribute & 50% of families receive considerably more than they pay. Hardly surprising that the vote was leave........

Surely you don't thing Brexit wil change this?

There are some peripheral developments that are now brewing which should be explored by the UK government before moving forward. It would be harmful for everybody if the UK to jump in prematurely without allowing some political developments to come to their fruition.

At the moment, the UK is up against an EU dogma around FMOP and market access. This is further enforced by Juncker's diktat that no conversations should take place until Article 50. I think the UK government should work on softening these positions as much as possible before invoking Article 50.

-Immigration and FMOP is a huge issue for everybody. It is fracturing the EU, and its member states. Merkel is losing ground, and will likely receive another drubbing in the upcoming Berlin election. The UK and others need to make the EU acknowledge this growing popular sentiment.

-Visigrad states are about to embark on a nationalist movement around this same issue of FMOP and immigration.

-There are a number of upcoming elections in other countries where this is a key issue. The EU risks further considerable damage.

-Calmey-Rey is reaching out to the UK, because its in the same boat. Coalescing with other countries about this same issue would strengthen the UK's hand.

-There is a group of English Expats launching a legal case against Juncker's intransigence, calling his decision to avoid negotiations undemocratic and damaging. They need to put him on the spot. Glad to hear some expats have the clarity and the balls to acknowledge where the problems lie, and have not fully drunk EU dogmatism koolaid.

So it would take some time to exploit all these towards softening EU resistance, but it is ultimate time well spent, if it strengthens the UK's negotiating point, and gets the UK a better deal. Its smarter to go for a quality deal than reactionarism.

	Quote:	Phos
	-There is a group of English Expats launching a legal case against Juncker's intransigence, calling his decision to avoid negotiations undemocratic and damaging. They need to put him on the spot. Glad to hear some expats have the clarity and the balls to acknowledge where the problems lie, and have not fully drunk EU dogmatism koolaid.

Sorry to be pedantic but how do you know that those expats NOT calling out Juncker are not actually in support of it, for reasons best known to themselves or have discovered, on balance, it doesn't apply to them rather than the blanket assumption that they lack the balls to do something?

Possibly you're right but in my experience it doesn't do to assume that a group of people all think the same way. There's no accounting for peoples motivation.

Actually, I've seen it on this thread a few times...

	Quote:
	Sorry to be pedantic but how do you know that those expats NOT calling out Juncker are not actually in support of it, for reasons best known to themselves or have discovered, on balance, it doesn't apply to them rather than the blanket assumption that they lack the balls to do something? Possibly you're right but in my experience it doesn't do to assume that a group of people all think the same way. There's no accounting for peoples motivation. Actually, I've seen it on this thread a few times...

The case they laid out and the statements they make clearly puts Juncker on the spot for his intransigence in ordering EVERYBODY not to talk to the UK. Which is truly what is keeping this process from moving forward, not May's government.

I believe there was a BBC link to this group. Unfortunately, I don't recall what they were calling themselves.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Phos
	-Visigrad states are about to embark on a nationalist movement around this same issue of FMOP and immigration.

It's not being widely reported in the West right now but especially Orbàn is doing a lot of bridge building. He was awarded a prize in Poland for his achievements and his acceptance speech there gave many the goosebumps. At the same time he has been talking to Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaia and even Ukraine and Turkey. These days there have been many anniversaries connected to battles against the Ottomans and Orban has been visiting the sites and unveiling monuments and using this as a platform to underline how Hungary stood in solidarity with these nations in defence of Christianity and is ready to do so again (imagine Merkel even thinking of doing that). He has also been doing a bit of fence mending over past animosities caused by mutual accusations over suppression of Hungraian minorities in neigbouring countries and vice versa. This is a very emotional topic both inside Hungary and outside and one that has caused alot of hard feelings in the past. Hungary will liekly be supporting the Serbs and Bulgarians in patrollling migrant flows so they don't even reach the Hungarian border and these countries will probably be building fences of their own. He is also stretching out a hand of friendship to Turkey and has received some understanding for his position. There are some pretty big things going on and I expect this wll lead to a new powerful coalition.

And as Orban is working hard to build bridges, Merkel is carelessly burning them down.

Makes me wonder which region will be ahead in 20 years time?

Its only a matter of time until the EU will have no choice but to face up to the failures of its dogmatism. The UK may not even have to deal with Comrade Juncker and Comrade Merkel, in the fullness of time. Unless people insist in participate in that wreck.