The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Phos
	He also ordered all member states to do that same.

And your reference is?

	Quote:	Urs Max
	And your reference is?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...uk-over-brexit

I recall they made statements on a unified approach to the UK.

[Kosti]

	Quote:	Phos
	https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...uk-over-brexit I recall they made statements on a unified approach to the UK.

The article talks about "ban on EU officials negotiating with the UK over Brexit is illegal.", and he says he is able to do so as the head of the EU bureaucracy.

It also goes on to say - "Juncker’s comments were only intended to bind commission officials not other EU member states."

Did you read it before posting the link?

Do you have a credible source for your claim that Juncker could ban member countries from negotiating?

	Quote:	Kosti
	The EU is not imposing refugee quotas under free movement. Saying that it is doing so under free movement, again and again, will not make it true. Edit: Currently there is no basis for the EU to impose mandatory quotas, hence the Visegrad countries are able to successfully oppose the quotas.

	Quote:
	That's the bit I had trouble with. While the media are not categorically linking refugees with the free movement of people, they are not really doing anything to set the record straight either. It's almost as if they are keeping the myth alive just to be able to pump out more stories to sell copy. It would only count under the "free movement of people" if the refugees were given citizenship of one other of the EU member states and they then "moved freely around the EU". Which is a bit far fetched.

Agreed that redistribution of refugees is a misuse of FMOP. The mandatory distribution was through a vote. In general, the topic is a country's sovereignty over its immigration. The EU has intoned that it doesn't have one if it wants access to its market. It even outright expresses contempt for borders and notions of nationalism.

Its a bit like a date who allows a guy to go to third base. And then the guy insists on the whole shebang even after she refuses. So he threatens her. IMO.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Kosti
	The Leavers certainly did link refugees with EU freedom of movement, and frankly, I dont think areas that swung the vote see much of difference between EU migrants and refugees. They are all foreigners. No country is "giving" refugees citizenship, but am sure that innuendo / story is also doing nicely out there in the right wing media.

I think the connection was in the implication that Germany or some other EU country might fast track recent refugees for citizenship, meaning full FMOP would then apply.

	Quote:	amogles
	I think the connection was in the implication that Germany or some other EU country might fast track recent refugees for citizenship, meaning full FMOP would then apply.

Like Germany talking about offering fast track DE citizenship for young Brits so they still have an EU passport..?

	Quote:	Kosti
	The article talks about "ban on EU officials negotiating with the UK over Brexit is illegal.", and he says he is able to do so as the head of the EU bureaucracy. It also goes on to say - "Juncker’s comments were only intended to bind commission officials not other EU member states." Did you read it before posting the link? Do you have a credible source for your claim that Juncker could ban member countries from negotiating?

No, Juncker has no legal authority to prevent a member state from discussing with the UK. This was a unified stance taken by the EU and its members. But he certainly is in the position to lay that plan, along with other EU leaders, which they apparently did.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Like Germany talking about offering fast track DE citizenship for young Brits so they still have an EU passport..?

Yes, there are many ways you can use fast-tracked citizenship to wind up or put pressure on other EU countries.

This is why FMOP doesn't really make sense if you don't also have some more or less unified concept of naturalization and citizenship.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Kosti
	No country is "giving" refugees citizenship, but am sure that innuendo / story is also doing nicely out there in the right wing media.

I still see people failing to make the disconnect between the Calais Jungle and their colleagues from Germany, Spain, etc...

[Sbrinz]

Another Brexit problem, the Brexit Leavers failed to notice: lack of short term cash to finance the changeover!

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37315544

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	Another Brexit problem, the Brexit Leavers failed to notice: lack of short term cash to finance the changeover! http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37315544

Quite why cutting public spending is considered bad beats me. Governments should ALWAYS spend within their means & not spend future income again and again year after year.

To quote Warren Buffet "I could end the deficit in five minutes. You just pass a law that says that any time there's a deficit of more than three percent of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	A second referendum once the details of the pre-Brexit agreement were known, would be the like...

But how would that work out? Do you want this deal or... oh wait there is no or...

Then there would be the question of when to hold such a referendum. Anything other than WTO/EEA would most likely require referenda in Ireland and Denmark for sure and possibly France, so when would you vote? Before the other three or after? And what happens if one of the three votes it down?

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	That team is to negotiate after Article 50. Junker ordered all his officials not to discuss until then. He also ordered all member states to do that same. Therein lies the point of contention. Juncker has no legal authority to order member states not to talk to the UK. Its purely prejudice and could very well have no legal standing.

"He also ordered all member states to do that same." Your statement is not true is it? He did not make this order.

	Quote:	marton
	"He also ordered all member states to do that same." Your statement is not true is it? He did not make this order.

No, I can't prove he has. I read a comment earlier that he had. At most, he might have defined or led this approach, in whatever case, I think his position bares some responsibility for it.

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	Agreed that redistribution of refugees is a misuse of FMOP. The mandatory distribution was through a vote. In general, the topic is a country's sovereignty over its immigration. The EU has intoned that it doesn't have one if it wants access to its market. It even outright expresses contempt for borders and notions of nationalism. Its a bit like a date who allows a guy to go to third base. And then the guy insists on the whole shebang even after she refuses. So he threatens her. IMO.

"Agreed that redistribution of refugees is a misuse of FMOP. " Why do you link refugees with FMOP? Do you have a source for this or is this one of your half remembered radio interviews you claim to have heard once ?

FMOP is the right of EU citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States; it has nothing to do with refugees

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	marton
	"He also ordered all member states to do that same." Your statement is not true is it? He did not make this order.

I can't find anything to back this up either.

I'm also struggling to understand this part of Phos' previous post...

	Quote:	Phos
	The EU has intoned that it doesn't have one if it wants access to its market. It even outright expresses contempt for borders and notions of nationalism.

How can this be 'intoned' then 'outright expresses contempt' in the very next sentence? It's one or the other, or somewhere inbetween.

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	No, I can't prove he has. I read a comment earlier that he had. At most, he might have defined or led this approach, in whatever case, I think his position bares some responsibility for it.

"I think his position bares some responsibility for it" The bare truth is always better

There is no evidence that Juncker led this approach,
Quote; “We won’t start to negotiate until we have Article 50,” said Xavier Bettel, prime minister of Luxembourg, reflecting a widely held consensus among the leaders.

From their point of view this is a reasonable approach; the EU countries are unlikely see any benefit from starting negotiations early?

Isn't a country's management of immigration vs. free access to the EU market the two sticking points for everybody?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Phos
	No, Juncker has no legal authority to prevent a member state from discussing with the UK.

Well if you actually took the time to read the treaty you'd find that he does!!!

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Kosti
	Do you have a credible source for your claim that Juncker could ban member countries from negotiating?

The treaty prevents individual states from entering into or attempting to negotiate such deals, with one exception being the UK and Ireland who are entitled to negotiate changes and extensions to the CTA.

Furthermore WTO rules prevents members from negotiating or entering independent trade deals with the UK while it remains an EU member.