The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	Ah, so we can look forward to more of the same post EU, then..? Situation: normal.

At least if you have accountable leaders, you can leverage democracy to assess their performance. But when you don't have accountable leaders, the series of crises will just go on unhindered indefinitely. Its a one way ticket to degeneration.

	Quote:	amogles
	Yes, this is the normal situation in politics. The main goal is to do things that keep you in power. However, exceptional leaders are people who rise above that and actually do things that are right.

Its like legacy software with defects. The owner insists on fixing it and adding more new features. So he hires a hack, who patches the software, only to reintroduce a dozen other defects.

When the code base start looking like spaghetti with no documentation, effort is much better spent at re-architecting it for a next major release.

It seems the West is at this point of its lifecycle.

[marton]

	Quote:	Phos
	I think that is the truth of the matter, that the EU is not really capable of a functioning. They can't even pass the Canadian deal. With all the rhetoric of a tough stance, they have a very weak hand, because what is really behind it is their incompetence and fragility to deal with reality. That is closer to the truth of the situation. Its all smoke and mirrors. And if a more serious problem were to arise, its more of a liability to be engaged with it. The illegal immigration crisis already attest to it. In fact, its difficult to find anything meaningful they've actually solved. The sooner they can come to terms with this, the more likely they will get real about their situation.

"They can't even pass the Canadian deal." So what do you think are the chances of the EU Parliament approving a Brexit deal?

Verhofstadt (Chief Brexit Negoiator for EU Parliament) warns of Brexit veto power, clearly he is trying to talk up his role.
See his Facebook page below; actually a couple of reasonable points.

	Quote:	Phos
	At least if you have accountable leaders, you can leverage democracy to assess their performance. But when you don't have accountable leaders, the series of crises will just go on unhindered indefinitely. Its a one way ticket to degeneration.

Aren't MEPs elected any more? It's a long time since I voted in the UK.


EDIT - just answered my own question by googling the MEPs for the area I used to live. Wowzers - that's a motley crew, if ever I saw one...

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	"They can't even pass the Canadian deal." So what do you think are the chances of the EU Parliament approving a Brexit deal? Verhofstadt (Chief Brexit Negoiator for EU Parliament) warns of Brexit veto power, clearly he is trying to talk up his role. See his Facebook page below; actually a couple of reasonable points.

Strange that when Boris says he wants to help Tuirkey join the EU, everybody cries foul saying, you can't do that if you're leaving.

But when Obama says something similar, everybody nods and says, great speech. Nobody says, you're not even a member yourself so keep out of it.

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	Strange that when Boris says he wants to help Tuirkey join the EU, everybody cries foul saying, you can't do that if you're leaving. But when Obama says something similar, everybody nods and says, great speech. Nobody says, you're not even a member yourself so keep out of it.

"Strange that when Boris says he wants to help Tuirkey join the EU, everybody cries foul saying, you can't do that if you're leaving." Who said that? Source?

Verhofstadt said Boris wants to help Turkey to join the EU when he campaigned for Brexit on the grounds that Turkey is joining the EU which Verhofstadt found surprising!

	Quote:	marton
	"They can't even pass the Canadian deal." So what do you think are the chances of the EU Parliament approving a Brexit deal? Verhofstadt (Chief Brexit Negoiator for EU Parliament) warns of Brexit veto power, clearly he is trying to talk up his role. See his Facebook page below; actually a couple of reasonable points.

That he was made chief negotiator obviously shows how little the EU wish to reach an exit deal. Farage summed this appointment up best:

"In terms of Brexit, you're probably right to be slightly critical of the British government, who ought to get on with it.

"But the EU is getting on with it and you've already appointed your divorce lawyers. On behalf of the European Parliament, we've got Guy Verhofstadt. He's the man who is going to be negotiating Brexit.

"If you were to think of this building [the EU Parliament] as a temple, well, Mr Verhofstadt is the high priest. A fanatic. In fact, there is only really one nationalist in this room and it's you [Verhofstadt] because you want flags, anthems, armies... you are an EU nationalist.

"I frankly think that this appointment amounts to pretty much a declaration of war on any sensible negotiation process."

	Quote:	Farage
	"In terms of Brexit, you're probably right to be slightly critical of the British government, who ought to get on with it. "But the EU is getting on with it and you've already appointed your divorce lawyers. On behalf of the European Parliament, we've got Guy Verhofstadt. He's the man who is going to be negotiating Brexit. "If you were to think of this building [the EU Parliament] as a temple, well, Mr Verhofstadt is the high priest. A fanatic. In fact, there is only really one nationalist in this room and it's you [Verhofstadt] because you want flags, anthems, armies... you are an EU nationalist. "I frankly think that this appointment amounts to pretty much a declaration of war on any sensible negotiation process."

What's that word again which keeps cropping up on this thread..?

That's it - "shrillness". Farage has kind of embodied it in that outburst about flag waving and fanatics.

[NomadAmericano]

	Quote:
	What's that word again which keeps cropping up on this thread..? That's it - "shrillness". Farage has kind of embodied it in that outburst about flag waving and fanatics.

Being shrill against the creation of an EU Army is no vice, as such a force would effectively end NATO.

	Quote:	NomadAmericano
	Being shrill against the creation of an EU Army is no vice, as such a force would effectively end NATO.

I'm not saying it's wrong or right but on this thread the word "shrill" was used on comments which questioned anti EU viewpoints but now the viewpoint is siding with anti EU viewpoints and delivered in a more emotional way, it's interesting that it's treated as a valid and serious point.

To be fair, although it is overly hysterical with emotive language it only goes to show that neither the pro nor anti EU people are immune from allowing unchecked emotion to show through the rhetoric.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	That he was made chief negotiator obviously shows how little the EU wish to reach an exit deal. Farage summed this appointment up best: "In terms of Brexit, you're probably right to be slightly critical of the British government, who ought to get on with it. "But the EU is getting on with it and you've already appointed your divorce lawyers. On behalf of the European Parliament, we've got Guy Verhofstadt. He's the man who is going to be negotiating Brexit. "If you were to think of this building [the EU Parliament] as a temple, well, Mr Verhofstadt is the high priest. A fanatic. In fact, there is only really one nationalist in this room and it's you [Verhofstadt] because you want flags, anthems, armies... you are an EU nationalist. "I frankly think that this appointment amounts to pretty much a declaration of war on any sensible negotiation process."

You got what you wished for; you should be celebrating?

You did want to leave the EU didn't you?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Farage summed this appointment up best:

Farage can't count, therefore can't sum anything up. It offends his sensibilities because all the numbers sound too much like their fancy German equivalents... or so his German wife tells him.


Has anyone got a serious point to make in this Phlozgles love in?

[NotAllThere]

Farage wouldn't know "sensible" if it bit him on the 'arris.

	Quote:	marton
	You got what you wished for; you should be celebrating? You did want to leave the EU didn't you?

I am delighted. I just find it remarkable that the EU hasn't learned ANYTHING out of Brexit.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	What's that word again which keeps cropping up on this thread..? That's it - "shrillness". Farage has kind of embodied it in that outburst about flag waving and fanatics.

Farage can say what he wants seeing he's not part of the negotiations.

But to me the appointment of Verhofstadt can only have two interpretations

1) either they pick the biggest thick-skulled buffoon in the crowd intentionally because they'll know he'll drive the cart into the rut. That would give them a face saving scapegoat while permitting them to defer the decision on how cooperative they want to be

2) they are sending in a troll knowing full well he will achieve nothing and are testing whether the UK side is prepared to walk away from the table.

Remember that Verhofstadt is the guy on whose guard as prime minister of Belgium the far right grew from being a fringe phenomenon to a major political movement. So he knows how to make potential allies into enemies.

	Quote:	Phos
	Yet I'm not sure there is anyone left in the UK with balls, or Western Europe for that matter.

I take this back. Farage does have balls, he's still in the UK, and maybe there are others, maybe not. But in this age of ballslessness and man-hating, I can understand how he would be hated, envied and vilified. Afterall, he's probably the most successful and significant politician out of the UK since the 1980s.

	Quote:	Phos
	I take this back. Farage does have balls, he's still in the UK, and maybe there are others, maybe not. But in this age of ballslessness and man-hating, I can understand how he would be hated, envied and vilified. Afterall, he's probably the most successful and significant politician out of the UK since the 1980s.

Success is a subjective assessment.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I am delighted. I just find it remarkable that the EU hasn't learned ANYTHING out of Brexit.

People keep referring to the EU as if it is a single entity; it is not it is;
27 countries
a Commission
a Parliament

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Phos
	I take this back. Farage does have balls, he's still in the UK, and maybe there are others, maybe not. But in this age of ballslessness and man-hating, I can understand how he would be hated, envied and vilified. Afterall, he's probably the most successful and significant politician out of the UK since the 1980s.

Almost lost for words.

Hated by millions.
Vilified by millions.
Envied by nobody.

He has no redeeming features and I hate saying that about anyone.

My dear Phos, we truely live in parallel universes.

[Reb77Br]

Has Farage started his European tour yet? It was supposed to be starting in September.

Nigel Farage announces European referendum tour
"Farage told POLITICO he would start a tour of European cities in September to help spread the appetite for referendums on EU membership beyond the U.K."