The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	marton
	The EU requires that three different institutions agree on decisions; no one of these can force the other two to agree but each one of these three can block decisions.

Not exactly, for example: The Commission serves at the pleasure of the Parliament. The Parliament can always remove the Commission if it so wishes.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	Oh, I don't think so, but what a fascinating thought -- Thatcher v Farage in a debate. Very different styles but Farage seems just as undentable as Thatch was. Immoveable object / irresistible force comes to mind.

Thatcher was a devil at home and a princess abroad. Farage is the opposite. Thatcher was also far more capable of verbally closing the opposition down.

Phos sees Farage with a knighthood in 10yrs time. I just see him getting booted out of Celebrity Big Brother and going straight into rehab. Wouldn't mind a tenner on who is closer to the truth...

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Phos
	That is where you lack objectivity, because you think its about you and how you feel.

Because it is about me and the millions like me who are directly affected, but you know this as I've explained why at length before.

Am I financially affected? Yes

Are my friends' and family's future adversely affected by this? In more ways than I knew or thought possible, and I'm hearing new ways on a daily basis, particularly as I'm currently in the UK.

Am I emotionally invested in what happens next? Hell yes!

Does it matter to you? Only as a way of attempting to score points on a web forum.

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Thatcher was a devil at home and a princess abroad. Farage is the opposite. Thatcher was also far more capable of verbally closing the opposition down. Phos sees Farage with a knighthood in 10yrs time. I just see him getting booted out of Celebrity Big Brother and going straight into rehab. Wouldn't mind a tenner on who is closer to the truth...

Some strange imagery there...

I think we can be confident that no one will offer Farage a knighthood. CBB isn't his destiny either. Doesn't he host some radio phone-in on LBC? I think that sort of thing is his niche. Perhaps a chat show on Sky TV, or a spot on Fox News.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	Some strange imagery there... I think we can be confident that no one will offer Farage a knighthood. CBB isn't his destiny either. Doesn't he host some radio phone-in on LBC? I think that sort of thing is his niche. Perhaps a chat show on Sky TV, or a spot on Fox News.

Did you ever see him on 'Steph & Dom Meet Nigel Farage'?

I always thought his pint drinking man image was just PR, but he does like the sauce. He got quite tipsy on that programme and ended up having borrow a pair of the host's ripped jeans. What surprised me though was, whilst the hosts were very polite and attentive, they managed to make him look small.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Because it is about me and the millions like me who are directly affected, but you know this as I've explained why at length before. Am I financially affected? Yes Are my friends' and family's future adversely affected by this? In more ways than I knew or thought possible, and I'm hearing new ways on a daily basis, particularly as I'm currently in the UK. Am I emotionally invested in what happens next? Hell yes! Does it matter to you? Only as a way of attempting to score points on a web forum.

And so you said many time, but like I said about your objectivity:

	Quote:	Phos
	I see no indication whatsoever you are capable of recognising one.

It doesn't change the fact that Thatcher and Farage are two of the greatest individuals to have done anything substantial for the UK.

[Blueangel]

Isn't it past your bedtime? Or have the kids woken you up again?

	Quote:	Phos
	That is where you lack objectivity, because you think its about you and how you feel.

Nobody has objectivity on this thread. Nobody. There are very few people not directly or indirectly affected by the outcome of the referendum, therefore they will always be influenced by how they "feel" about it. The emotive language and tenacity of people repeatedly posting over almost 300 pages of thread is testament to that so let's not throw cheap judgement around of others' levels of objectivity, eh?

	Quote:	Phos
	...Thatcher...

You do realise she was one of the main forces behind the single market?

	Quote:
	You do realise she was one of the main forces behind the single market?

If only it had remained just that, none of this would have ever happened.

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	marton
	"You must have heard many people say "I love Europe but dislike the EU". " I have but they are wrong. "They're referring to the EU as the single legal entity" But it is not a single legal entity! There have been several attempts to fix this (like the treaty of Rome) but none were completely ratified. EU decision-making involves three main institutions: the European Commission which represents the interests of the EU as a whole, the Council of the European Union which represents the individual member countries, the European Parliament, which represents EU citizens and is directly elected by them. You compare the EU to Manchester United but that is false. It is more like FIFA but even FIFA is a heirarchy. The EU requires that three different institutions agree on decisions; no one of these can force the other two to agree but each one of these three can block decisions. So saying "I love Europe but dislike the EU" is nonsense. You could, for example, say I love the Council of Europe and the Europe Parliament but I do not like the European Commission?

Oh for heaven's sake. That's a very silly argument. On that basis, there is no such thing as a single entity in the entire world, is there? The European Commission certainly isn't one as it comprises all those commissioners. And they are made up of different body parts and bit of clothing.... Maybe once we get down to a sub-molecular level we have a single entity?

No. It's totally comprehensible to say "I love Europe but dislike the EU" -- as in fact I have said many times, and will continue to say. Everyone understands that the European Union in this context refers to the organisation and its collective administrative apparatus and mores -- and certainly not the member nations.

[Britething]

	Quote:	Phos
	It doesn't change the fact that Thatcher and Farage are two of the greatest individuals to have done anything substantial for the UK.

That must be why they were unable to erect a statue to 'celebrate' Thatcher 'and all she did for Britain'. It kept getting vandalized.
I can't see anyone even being crass enough to suggest putting up a statue to glorify Mr Cabbage.

	Quote:	Britething
	That must be why they were unable to erect a statue to 'celebrate' Thatcher 'and all she did for Britain'. It kept getting vandalized. I can't see anyone even being crass enough to suggest putting up a statue to glorify Mr Cabbage.

True but I guess it depends on your point of view and how she impacted your own life. Talk about Thatcher pretty much anywhere up north and people will spit since she was instrumental in laying waste to many industries up there and creating a lot of unemployment but she was also got the City buzzing and its financial centre attracting investment and growth.

I come from the north and witnessed the carnage up there so can't really see a place for a Maggie statue. A Farage statue might do better, though, he deals in bandwagon politics so anyone who is pissed off with foreigners, hates the EU, and enjoys a pint would probably welcome it.

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	Phos
	It doesn't change the fact that Thatcher and Farage are two of the greatest individuals to have done anything substantial for the UK.

You are joking, right?

You could say Shakespeare, Darwin, Newton, Brunel, Nelson, Churchill and the list goes on, but not Thatcher or Farage!

	Quote:
	You do realise she was one of the main forces behind the single market?

	Quote:	TobiasM
	You are joking, right? You could say Shakespeare, Darwin, Newton, Brunel, Nelson, Churchill and the list goes on, but not Thatcher or Farage!

Balls, the topic was balls. Thatcher had more fortitude and courage than anybody, which is in short supply in the UK today.

	Quote:	Phos
	Balls, the topic was balls. Thatcher had more courage than anybody, which is in short supply in the UK today.

She also had a reasonable cabinet, which has been lacking in government, especially today. She was fairly average but with the right machine behind her it became a more significant premiership.

[bigblue2]

	Quote:
	True but I guess it depends on your point of view and how she impacted your own life. Talk about Thatcher pretty much anywhere up north and people will spit since she was instrumental in laying waste to many industries up there and creating a lot of unemployment but she was also got the City buzzing and its financial centre attracting investment and growth. I come from the north and witnessed the carnage up there so can't really see a place for a Maggie statue. A Farage statue might do better, though, he deals in bandwagon politics so anyone who is pissed off with foreigners, hates the EU, and enjoys a pint would probably welcome it.

I hear that a lot, but what exactly did she do? the industries in the 70's / 80's where in turmoil, strikes, poor quality, expensive eg coal - it was cheaper to buy it and ship it from abroad then use home grown, but the unions wouldn't allow any changes.

I grew up in the 70's (down south admittedly) but near a coal mine, so saw a lot of the stupidity first hand.

I remember the cars my dad had at that time too, british made but rusted / fallen apart when only a few years old, it certainly wasn't a sign of quality having british made on anything at that time.

as far as I can tell all she did was break the unions stronghold, but they where just as bad, if not worse for industry then she ever was.

	Quote:
	She also had a reasonable cabinet, which has been lacking in government, especially today. She was fairly average but with the right machine behind her it became a more significant premiership.

You think? This pretty well sums them up

How does this work?

	Quote:
	You think? This pretty well sums them up How does this work?

Must be the current shocking cabinet of chimps which is making the cabinets of years gone by look good, then...

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Phos
	Balls, the topic was balls. Thatcher had more fortitude and courage than anybody, which is in short supply in the UK today.

If that is the case, it's only because I've moved to Switzerland.

	Quote:	bigblue2
	as far as I can tell all she did was break the unions stronghold, but they where just as bad, if not worse for industry then she ever was.

Many unions of the time were horrendous. I was a union rep through the 90's til 2002 and they had largely turned the corner then, though I still got a lot of flack from the old guard for not being a Labour voter. One guy even tried to black ball me off the union for it, but it was raised at the branch meeting (I knew nothing of this in advance) and his proposal was unanimously defeated for the simple reason that the members knew I always fought their corner and got results, no matter what their politics were.

The unions needed to change with the times, and understand social mobility to survive.