The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Medea Fleecestealer]

Not necessarily. EU nationals would still have to pass UK immigration when they fly or sail from Ireland. It's the border between north and south where the problems will be, given that Ireland doesn't seem to want to reintroduce border controls there. But even if they do try and "flood" in via Northern Ireland without being able to state a valid reason for why they're flying/sailing to the rest of the UK, they'd be stuck there.

[marton]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Not necessarily. EU nationals would still have to pass UK immigration when they fly or sail from Ireland. It's the border between north and south where the problems will be, given that Ireland doesn't seem to want to reintroduce border controls there. But even if they do try and "flood" in via Northern Ireland without being able to state a valid reason for why they're flying/sailing to the rest of the UK, they'd be stuck there.

The UK Border Force does not carry out routine immigration checks on travellers (regardless of nationality) arriving in the mainland UK from another part of the CTA.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	EU nationals would still have to pass UK immigration when they fly or sail from Ireland.

I doubt the idea of having their passports checked before they go from one part of the UK to another will fly with the Unionists! And as the Irish Foreign Minster pointed out: “I caution that this will be a decision not just by the UK or Irish governments but ultimately also by the 27 EU states."

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	marton
	The UK Border Force does not carry out routine immigration checks on travellers (regardless of nationality) arriving in the mainland UK from another part of the CTA.

Not yet, no. But is there anything that says they can't set up a similar arrangement to Calais where they do? From the link:

"Britain is seeking to shift the frontline of immigration controls to Ireland’s ports and airports to avoid having to introduce a “hard border” between north and south after the UK leaves the European Union, the Guardian has learned."

This is exactly what they do at Calais.

Maybe the CTA will have to be amended as well. Surely some checks can and should be introduced without causing major transit problems.

Alternate plan: move those of the population of Northern Ireland who want to stay in the UK over the water and give the land to Ireland. Ireland becomes "whole", Unionists get to stay in the Union (assuming it still exists after Scotland leaves) - everyone's happy.

[marton]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Not yet, no. But is there anything that says they can't set up a similar arrangement to Calais where they do? From the link: "Britain is seeking to shift the frontline of immigration controls to Ireland’s ports and airports to avoid having to introduce a “hard border” between north and south after the UK leaves the European Union, the Guardian has learned." This is exactly what they do at Calais. Maybe the CTA will have to be amended as well. Surely some checks can and should be introduced without causing major transit problems. Alternate plan: move those of the population of Northern Ireland who want to stay in the UK over the water and give the land to Ireland. Ireland becomes "whole", Unionists get to stay in the Union (assuming it still exists after Scotland leaves) - everyone's happy.

The Irish Govt. will not be happy; they do not want to pick up the bill for N. Ireland grants and subsidies, currently over £ 20 billion annually.
This is why they have been saying for many years they do not want the North

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	marton
	The Irish Govt. will not be happy; they do not want to pick up the bill for N. Ireland grants and subsidies, currently over £ 20 billion annually. This is why they have been saying for many years they do not want the North

Irish diplomats have been floating a different proposal in Brussels: NI to remain nominally British (= carry the cost), but enters into a customs union with Ireland. No need to address FMOP as they are all entitled to Irish passports in any case.

That way the republicans get to pretend they have a united Ireland, the unionists get to pretend they still have an empire and the Irish avoid the embarrassment of having to reject them. The only flaw is that the rest of th U.K. has to pay for it, otherwise sure isn't it a great plan!

[Faltrad]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	"Britain is seeking to shift the frontline of immigration controls to Ireland’s ports and airports to avoid having to introduce a “hard border” between north and south after the UK leaves the European Union, the Guardian has learned." This is exactly what they do at Calais. D

Do the Britts really expect the Irish to consider Calais as an example to follow on their own territory?

[Medea Fleecestealer]

As far as installing British personnel to administer passport control for the UK yes. Whether a camp such as the Jungle would ever build up in Ireland is another question and one that will only be answered once the UK finally leaves the EU.

[marton]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	As far as installing British personnel to administer passport control for the UK yes. Whether a camp such as the Jungle would ever build up in Ireland is another question and one that will only be answered once the UK finally leaves the EU.

The issue is not illegal migrants who are not allowed into Ireland anyway.

The issue is EU citizens who can enter Ireland freely and then could cross to mainland UK without any further formalities.

It is a different situation from Calais where, presumably sooner or later, EU citizens will face stronger controls.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

The UK has got to bite the bullet and reintroduce border controls in Northern Ireland then. Frankly I can't see why Ireland should get special treatment. Yes, they were part of the UK for a long while, but are not now. Treat them as every other country in the EU and scrap CTA. It's a good opportunity to see what works and what doesn't for when/if Scotland also gains independence and rejoins the EU as that will need border controls too.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Faltrad
	Do the Britts really expect the Irish to consider Calais as an example to follow on their own territory?

Do the Irish consider Calais an example worthy emulating? Or will they do what they can to retain the open border, if need be by creating an exception?

[marton]

Tory MP accuses government of 'tyranny' over Brexit strategy.

Stephen Phillips, who voted to leave in the referendum, said: “I and many others did not exercise our vote in the referendum so as to restore the sovereignty of this parliament only to see what we regarded as the tyranny of the European Union replaced by that of a government that apparently wishes to ignore the views of the house on the most important issue facing the nation.”

Source

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	The Irish Govt. will not be happy; they do not want to pick up the bill for N. Ireland grants and subsidies, currently over £ 20 billion annually. This is why they have been saying for many years they do not want the North

The Irish can well afford to say they do not want the North as long as their chances of getting it are pretty slim anyway.

But if that reality were to change, I'm pretty sure public opinion in the Republic wouldn't be objecting too strongly.

I'm sure there would be many arguing that the costs would be well worth it.

I guess maybe even the Unionists could be placated if the Repubic were to write some special protection such as elements of self rule into their constitution (in the same way various other European nations have such arrangements for minorities).

Honestly don't get this one. Having an open border for people is not a problem between EU and non-EU states - Sweden and Norway had one for years before both joined Schengen.

What is unavoidable however is a customs border between the North and South.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Honestly don't get this one. Having an open border for people is not a problem between EU and non-EU states - Sweden and Norway had one for years before both joined Schengen. What is unavoidable however is a customs border between the North and South.

Which is basically what Switzerland has.

[marton]

	Quote:
	Honestly don't get this one. Having an open border for people is not a problem between EU and non-EU states - Sweden and Norway had one for years before both joined Schengen. What is unavoidable however is a customs border between the North and South.

UK and Ireland are both not in Schengen so today there is no open border for people between these countries and the other EU countries.

Both countries are in the Customs union so there is no Customs border between these countries and the other EU countries today.
In Dover they do control incoming vehicles for illegal imports but oddly there is no red door to drive to if you do have something you want to declare!

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	but oddly there is no red door to drive to if you do have something you want to declare!

You would need to declare those goods when entering the EU, France is in the EU so clearly no need to declare at that border.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	The UK has got to bite the bullet and reintroduce border controls in Northern Ireland then.

And that would be a catalyst for them to invoke the GFA and start up the whole tourist thing again.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	amogles
	The Irish can well afford to say they do not want the North as long as their chances of getting it are pretty slim anyway.

With the GFA, it is only a matter to time before they vote themselves out of the UK! 20 years maybe.

	Quote:	amogles
	But if that reality were to change, I'm pretty sure public opinion in the Republic wouldn't be objecting too strongly. I'm sure there would be many arguing that the costs would be well worth it.

The most recent polls suggest that only about 30% would be willing to accept NI.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	What is unavoidable however is a customs border between the North and South.

On the contrary it would be possible for Ni to remain part of the UK while entering a customs union with Ireland.... we already have precedence for it. The real problem is the Spain would most likely demand the same for Gibraltar and no doubt the SNP would be looking for something similar.