The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Blueangel]

So that we can become a colony of the US with Farage as our envoy/ambassador/man in Washington? Not on your Nellie!

As Brits, are we European or American? Personally, I'm firmly down the "divided by a common language" train of thought. I've always found the US to be more foreign to me than most places in Europe. Perhaps that's because I've only been to the West and not the East of the US, I don't know....

Brilliant article on Huffington Post, which seems to be picking up the pace on decent journalism over many of the tabloids. Isn't it strange that we could almost cross reference posts in this thread to the Trump threads now. Are people finally beginning to join the dots?

	Quote:
	We should be asking ourselves what our Archduke Ferdinand moment will be. How will an apparently small event trigger another period of massive destruction. We see Brexit, Trump, Putin in isolation. The world does not work that way  —  all things are connected and affecting each other. I have pro-Brexit friends who say, “Oh, you’re going to blame that on Brexit too??” But they don’t realize that actually, yes, historians will trace neat lines from apparently unrelated events back to major political and social shifts like Brexit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tobias..._11179774.html

Interesting figures our today, re the will of 'the people':

within the last 4 months, with the number of leavers having died, and the number of youngsters who would have voted remain, the number of expats now abroad 15 years +, and those who have clearly stated they regret their vote (both ways) - the %ages are already reversed.

	Quote:
	Interesting figures our today, re the will of 'the people': within the last 4 months, with the number of leavers having died, and the number of youngsters who would have voted remain, the number of expats now abroad 15 years +, and those who have clearly stated they regret their vote (both ways) - the %ages are already reversed.

I think it's pretty conclusively established now, after Brexit and Trump, that polls are meaningless.

[marton]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	So that we can become a colony of the US with Farage as our envoy/ambassador/man in Washington? Not on your Nellie! As Brits, are we European or American? Personally, I'm firmly down the "divided by a common language" train of thought. I've always found the US to be more foreign to me than most places in Europe. Perhaps that's because I've only been to the West and not the East of the US, I don't know.... Brilliant article on Huffington Post, which seems to be picking up the pace on decent journalism over many of the tabloids. Isn't it strange that we could almost cross reference posts in this thread to the Trump threads now. Are people finally beginning to join the dots?

Farage gave an interview with the Telegraph where he claims Trump's team has reservations about May's team.
Of course, as the acting leader of another political party he is not going to be handing out bouquets of flowers is he?

[Sbrinz]

With all the unhappiness, misdeeds and downright lies that have come about since June, I think the quickest and most sensible thing for the UK government to do is:

Hold another referendum and tell the people it is binding, not advisory, & the will of the people will definitely be respected this time.

Can anyone object? Maybe the result will change, but the result might be more accurate than the fudged previous attempt at democracy.

[Sbrinz]

	Quote:	marton
	Farage gave an interview with the Telegraph where he claims Trump's team has reservations about May's team. Of course, as the acting leader of another political party, he is not going to be handing out bouquets of flowers, is he?

I think it is time for Farage to shut his gob, and to be ignored.

He is finished with Brussels, and he hasn't inspired the UK public enough to vote UKIP. To go running & crying to Trump is ridiculous.

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	He is finished with Brussels, and he hasn't inspired the UK public enough to vote UKIP. To go running & crying to Trump is ridiculous.

Hahahahaha! Have you been asleep for the past 12 months?

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	I think it is time for Farage to shut his gob, and to be ignored. He is finished with Brussels, and he hasn't inspired the UK public enough to vote UKIP. To go running & crying to Trump is ridiculous.

2015 election. SNP: 1.4 million votes, Libdems: 2.4 Million Votes. UKIP: 3.8 million votes.

The UK Governmant has dismissed him as an "irrelevance" showing - yet again! - that they just don't get it. You might hate nigel farage, but he represents a large amount of people. If you dismiss him as an irrelevance then you are dismissing them too and that, for the millionth time Big Government, is why you lost the Vote, because you just announce people who dont agree with your views to be thick racist scum who should be locked up.

	Quote:	Mikers
	2015 election. SNP: 1.4 million votes, Libdems: 2.4 Million Votes. UKIP: 3.8 million votes. The UK Governmant has dismissed him as an "irrelevance" showing - yet again! - that they just don't get it. You might hate nigel farage, but he represents a large amount of people. If you dismiss him as an irrelevance then you are dismissing them too and that, for the millionth time Big Government, is why you lost the Vote, because you just announce people who dont agree with your views to be thick racist scum who should be locked up.

Exactly this and more. He led a party which was founded with the sole aim of leaving the EU. This has now been realised this despite UKIP only having 1 MP. Farage has arguably been more influential and shaped the county's future more than ANY MP or politician since Margret Thatcher.

	Quote:	Mikers
	2015 election. SNP: 1.4 million votes, Libdems: 2.4 Million Votes. UKIP: 3.8 million votes. The UK Governmant has dismissed him as an "irrelevance" showing - yet again! - that they just don't get it. You might hate nigel farage, but he represents a large amount of people. If you dismiss him as an irrelevance then you are dismissing them too and that, for the millionth time Big Government, is why you lost the Vote, because you just announce people who dont agree with your views to be thick racist scum who should be locked up.

Isn't that a bit like the Hillary votes phenomenon, though? She won the popular votes by 2.2 million but her supporters are being told to shut up because nobody's interested.

Same could be said for Farage. He's got a big following but that counts for nowt in the grand scheme of things. People should be careful what they preach to each other, because sometimes you have to suck it up yourself.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Exactly this and more. He led a party which was founded with the sole aim of leaving the EU. This has now been realised this despite UKIP only having 1 MP. Farage has arguably been more influential and shaped the county's future more than ANY MP or politician since Margret Thatcher.

"with the sole aim of leaving the EU." Sole aim! Lol!
You have never read their
Manifesto have you, it runs to 76 pages?

LibDem are playing quite clever supporting Remain and aiming at the 16 million Remain voters for the next General election while the Leave voters will be split between Tory, Labour and UKIP.

	Quote:	marton
	"with the sole aim of leaving the EU." Sole aim! Lol! You have never read their Manifesto have you, it runs to 76 pages?

And you haven't read my post properly. Let me help.

	Quote:	Loz1983
	He led a party which was founded with the sole aim of leaving the EU.

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	I think it is time for Farage to shut his gob, and to be ignored. He is finished with Brussels, and he hasn't inspired the UK public enough to vote UKIP. To go running & crying to Trump is ridiculous.

He didn't really look like he was crying. I don't know if I've seen him with a bigger smile. Seems unlikely for him to go away as his relevancy appears to be increasing.

	Quote:	Phos
	He didn't really look like he was crying. I don't know if I've seen him with a bigger smile. Seems unlikely for him to go away as his relevancy appears to be increasing.

It's the smile of an opportunist who has spotted some coat tails he can grab.

Re my previous post re the 'power of the people' figures now switched over, from 51.89/48.11 to now 47.95/52.05 - of course there is a margin of error there. But this is not based on a 'poll' but a proper BE study ... even is you diss the figures - it certainly serves to illustrate just how VERY close the numbers were (and this even more in the USA elections where Clinton got more votes than Trump anyhow).

Those figures have also been very fair in their estimation of expats now over 15 years abroad who would be unable to vote (as in France, Spain, Italy- they are mainly retirees).

categories estimated were

now dead
voters now over 18
less regretters on both sides
switching regretters on both sides
expats who no longer can vote since then (as over 15 years abroad)

and figures as of 6th of November: 16, 729, 768 leave 18,161,215 remain.

As said, perhaps not 100% accurate- as no study can be- but certainly indicative of how silly the the concept of the 'will of the people' is in both Brexit and USA elections.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	And you haven't read my post properly. Let me help.

"He led a party which was founded with the sole aim of leaving the EU."
If you are talking about the Anti-Federalist League?
This was a small cross-party organisation in Britain, formed in 1991 to campaign against the Maastricht Treaty not about leaving the EU.

The Maastricht Treaty greatly increased the powers of the European Commission which many people did not like but it was eventually ratified by Parliament.

	Quote:
	It's the smile of an opportunist who has spotted some coat tails he can grab.

Some good cartoons out there about all the **** licking

[Cata1yst]

	Quote:
	Re my previous post re the 'power of the people' figures now switched over, from 51.89/48.11 to now 47.95/52.05 - of course there is a margin of error there. But this is not based on a 'poll' but a proper BE study ... even is you diss the figures - it certainly serves to illustrate just how VERY close the numbers were (and this even more in the USA elections where Clinton got more votes than Trump anyhow). Those figures have also been very fair in their estimation of expats now over 15 years abroad who would be unable to vote (as in France, Spain, Italy- they are mainly retirees). categories estimated were now dead voters now over 18 less regretters on both sides switching regretters on both sides and figures as of 6th of November: 16, 729, 768 leave 18,161,215 remain. As said, perhaps not 100% accurate- as no study can be- but certainly indicative of how silly the the concept of the 'will of the people' is in both Brexit and USA elections.

So since the 23rd June there is now a 2 million swing to remain?

Are you on crack? Just checking as the BS statistics/polls are pretty much useless in this regard (are these the same people who ran the original polls, certain for remain/Hillary to win?)

You would need a second referendum at a 50M cost to prove or disprove. This is the final point, there will be no second referendum in the next few years so accept it will happen and try to do the best under those circumstances.

I would have accepted any result either way as the will of the people why is it others cannot accept a democratic result?

I'm astounded by "intelligent" people who continually refuse to accept the outcome of the referendum because it doesn't fit their own personal beliefs and "they know better."

Hint - this is why "remain" lost, "knowing better" and being "more intelligent" does not equal votes and you need to listen to the forgotten people of the UK to know why they voted out. I have said this many times before, this is why the forgotten gave a middle finger to politicians who do not listen to them.

The US election was again won on the rules that are in place in a fair and open competition. Hillary outspent Trump 6:1, so she certainly used all weapons at her disposal.

Certainly Hillary got more votes over all (600k out of 102 Million) but that is not the point, the election of the president does not work that way, this has happened many times in the past with presidential elections. I hated GW Bush, but that was the result and it was accepted.

Lets not forget the UK election votes were 1.3M difference on 46.5M people, so theoretically 4 times more people won the "popular" vote to leave the UK in the referendum than the US gap, which is BS really as we know statistics are what you want them to be.

The only statistic that counts is :-

Leave the European Union 17,410,742
Remain a member of the European Union 16,141,241
Valid votes 33,551,983
Invalid or blank votes 25,359
Total votes 33,577,342

(72.21%, one of the highest turnouts for a UK vote in living history.)

You may not like what is happening and many don't, but it is better to challenge the future and improve it rather than the best of 3 scissors, paper, rock scenario which will not happen.

It just makes people look like sore losers who are unable to accept and discuss others point of view.

That's it no further discussions. The votes were fair and this is the result.

You know full well that the vote was not fair- and that so many people clearly voted based on lies - now questionned in the Courts.

Perhaps you didn't actually read my post. The BE study didn't 'just' count the regretters - but a whole array of categories- with negative and positivve effects on the vote. For instance, the numbers of expats now over 15 years abroad and no longer allowed to vote since then, was estimated at 260.000 on leave side and 1,044,645 on remain side (= minus) ...

This serves to illustrate that the 'Power to the People' concept with such tight figures is just meaningless then and today.

Great avatar btw

[Cata1yst]

	Quote:
	You know full well that the vote was not fair- and that so many people clearly voted based on lies - now questionned in the Courts. Perhaps you didn't actually read my post. The BE study didn't 'just' count the regretters - but a whole array of categories- with negative and positivve effects on the vote. For instance, the numbers of expats now over 15 years abroad and no longer allowed to vote since then, was estimated at 260.000 on leave side and 1,044,645 on remain side (= minus) ... This serves to illustrate that the 'Power to the People' concept with such tight figures is just meaningless then and today. Great avatar btw

It does not matter, it is completely irrelevant.

The vote was held and the result was the result.

Perhaps we should rerun the last general election (which was also full of lies) or does that one work for you?