The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	marton
	[Me:] "Cameron made it clear, over and over again, that this was a binding referendum. He even made a big deal out of this point in a speech outside Downing St, the day before the vote" [Marton:] If he did then he was lying...... Anyway he is gone and his promises are gone with him.

Congratulations. In a very competitive field, that takes the biscuit for the most breathtakingly arrogant statement in this long discussion.

You're someone who moans about the "lies" of the Leave campaign: saying we send £350m every week to Brussels rather than £250m, and so on. But you're now saying that the PM himself, when he constantly talked about the finality of the referendum was: yeah, y'know, lying and what's the big deal anyway? He's gone, so his promises don't count anymore

Here's what he said in Downing St just before the vote: "And remember: they can’t undo the decision we take. If we vote out, that’s it. It is irreversible. We will leave Europe – for good." This statement was repeated many times during the campaign.

I've something to thank you for. I'm so exasperated by this sort of intransigence / arrogance on this subject (and not just from the Remain side) that I'm ducking out of it. The discussion has already dwindled to just a handful of obsessives lobbing turds over the fence at each other. And yes, I probably lobbed a few myself. When the level of debate sinks to: "He's gone, so his promises are gone with him" it's time to find a more fruitful use of my time.

Enough.

[marton]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	Congratulations. In a very competitive field, that takes the biscuit for the most breathtakingly arrogant statement in this long discussion. You're someone who moans about the "lies" of the Leave campaign: saying we send £350m every week to Brussels rather than £250m, and so on. But you're now saying that the PM himself, when he constantly talked about the finality of the referendum was: yeah, y'know, lying and what's the big deal anyway? He's gone, so his promises are gone with him Here's what he said in Downing St just before the vote: "And remember: they can’t undo the decision we take. If we vote out, that’s it. It is irreversible. We will leave Europe – for good." This statement was repeated many times during the campaign. I've something to thank you for. I'm so exasperated by this sort of obsessional intransigence / arrogance on this subject (and not just from the Remain side) that I'm ducking out of it. The discussion has already dwindled to just a handful of obsessives lobbing turds over the fence at each other. And yes, I probably lobbed a few myself. When someone openly says: "He's gone, so nothing he says matters" it's time to find a more fruitful use of my time. Enough.

"He's gone, so nothing he says matters" Realpolitik innit!
Can you name any single Tory leader or influential politician who has stood up and said the words "I will ensure Cameron's promises are kept"?

"You're someone who moans about the "lies" of the Leave campaign" I have often posted that both sides lied

What on earth, can anyone please tell me, is Boris Johnson doing/saying/thinking?

Saudi Arabia comments

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	We're currently witnessing the first line of that. As fatmanfilms likes to point out, the FTSE is on the up, but who is making the investment?

FMF of course

	Quote:	Swisstree
	What on earth, can anyone please tell me, is Boris Johnson doing/saying/thinking? Saudi Arabia comments

The truth?

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The truth?

Don't start!

Not talking about the truth, but how he keeps tripping May up.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The truth?

Even all the major political commentators have said he's telling the truth, particularly in the context of the previous speaker at this meeting. But it's hardly diplomatic... Oh well.

[marton]

	Quote:	Swisstree
	Don't start! Not talking about the truth, but how he keeps tripping May up.

Clearly Boris does not want to be blamed for whatever Brexit turns out to be in reality and is trying to get himself fired early.

Such a shame this was not asked on Question Time last night (BBC UK) ...

Power to the people and getting your country back sounds great, hey - but with most utilities and Power/energy companies having been sold to foreigners, be it the French or Germans .... they literally have us over a barrel.

And yesterday... the gas network and pipeline sold to the Chinese and the Qataris. Absolutely incredible To make yourself totally dependent on foreign supply for electrictiy, gas, water, oil, etc - and claim to fight to get your 'country and independence back', is at best deluded, at worst suicidal

	Quote:
	Such a shame this was not asked on Question Time last night (BBC UK) ... Power to the people and getting your country back sounds great, hey - but with most utilities and Power/energy companies having been sold to foreigners, be it the French or Germans .... they literally have us over a barrel. And yesterday... the gas network and pipeline sold to the Chinese and the Qataris. Absolutely incredible To make yourself totally dependent on foreign supply for electrictiy, gas, water, oil, etc - and claim to fight to get your 'country and independence back', is at best deluded, at worst suicidal

I don't think you understand how business works.

Do you know that Ovomaltine is owned by a UK company? And that Toblorone is American. What will the Swiss do?

[Aeneas]

	Quote:
	Power to the people and getting your country back sounds great, hey - but with most utilities and Power/energy companies having been sold to foreigners, be it the French or Germans .... they literally have us over a barrel.

For your average man on the Clapham omnibus, this is a non issue. A faceless elite from the UK or from Germany, it's still someone who is divorced from their lives - the 1% are foreign, regardless of where they come from. What they care more about is who that British or German company employs to do the work and in this regard both the US election and Brexit highlighted the following objectionable practices:

1. Outsourcing or moving of production / service off shore, leading to job losses.
2. Importing of cheap foreign labour, putting downward pressure on local salaries.

As long as the business owners don't do this, the hoi polloi doesn't really care where they're from unless they can be shown that they are somehow losing out if the business is owned by a foreigner and they can feel this loss.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I don't think you understand how business works. Do you know that Ovomaltine is owned by a UK company? And that Toblorone is American. What will the Swiss do?

However Putin and the Middle East have demonstrated that owning the power supplies is a big political lever.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	Outsourcing or moving of production / service off shore, leading to job losses. Importing of cheap foreign labour, putting downward pressure on local salaries.

You left out number 3 - We don't want to pay for 1 or 2, we just want cheap stuff

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	You left out number 3 - We don't want to pay for 1 or 2, we just want cheap stuff

Yes, but as the last year has shown 1 and 2 have become the overriding concerns. The cake and eat it approach that seeks the low prices that come with globalisation, but without sacrificing income, is pretty typical of electorates. For example, surveys prior to the Brexit vote found that many Britons supported their right to live and work in other EU nations, but equally opposed other EU citizens right to live and work in the UK.

Even here, how many Swiss will you see getting on or off the train with suitcases full of shopping at Constance, that you just know vote SVP?

[MidfieldGeneral]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	I don't think you understand how business works. Do you know that Ovomaltine is owned by a UK company? And that Toblorone is American. What will the Swiss do?

actually, Odile makes an excellent point. Brexiters are obsessed with immigrants, faceless Euro bureaucrats etc etc yet on key security issues they don't give a damn e.g. Hinkley Point sold out to the Chinese:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-gets-go-ahead

	Quote:	marton
	However Putin and the Middle East have demonstrated that owning the power supplies is a big political lever.

EDF and RWE have invested in UK utilities in order to make money. They're not going to turn off the power. This isn't Russia or the Middle East. And even if they did, the UK would just take their power stations off them.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	EDF and RWE have invested in UK utilities in order to make money. They're not going to turn off the power. This isn't Russia or the Middle East. And even if they did, the UK would just take their power stations off them.

"They're not going to turn off the power." There are more subtle ways to influence

"the UK would just take their power stations off them" Without them agreeing? Then they would be sued for mega bucks, read the Norex and Yukos stories. The days of "send a gunboat" are long gone

	Quote:	marton
	"They're not going to turn off the power." There are more subtle ways to influence "the UK would just take their power stations off them" Without them agreeing? Then they would be sued for mega bucks, read the Norex and Yukos stories. The days of "send a gunboat" are long gone

What are they going to do? Now I'm REALLY interested. Please outline it. What is there to worry about?

In case you had forgotten, there's also a couple of other utilities companies operating in the UK, little known outfits called British Gas and SSE

[marton]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	For your average man on the Clapham omnibus, this is a non issue. A faceless elite from the UK or from Germany, it's still someone who is divorced from their lives - the 1% are foreign, regardless of where they come from. What they care more about is who that British or German company employs to do the work and in this regard both the US election and Brexit highlighted the following objectionable practices: Outsourcing or moving of production / service off shore, leading to job losses. Importing of cheap foreign labour, putting downward pressure on local salaries. As long as the business owners don't do this, the hoi polloi doesn't really care where they're from unless they can be shown that they are somehow losing out if the business is owned by a foreigner and they can feel this loss.

"Importing of cheap foreign labour" Is that really happening in the UK or just a perception.

There is a minimum wage law plus any foreigner here with a skilled worker visa (Tier 2) must earn at least £35,000 (almost triple minimum wage) or face being deported.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	What are they going to do? Now I'm REALLY interested. Please outline it. What is there to worry about? In case you had forgotten, there's also a couple of other utilities companies operating in the UK, little known outfits called British Gas and SSE

	Quote:	Loz1983
	EDF and RWE have invested in UK utilities in order to make money. They're not going to turn off the power. This isn't Russia or the Middle East. And even if they did, the UK would just take their power stations off them.

Enron has proven this to be complete horsemanure. They deliberately created brownouts and even blackouts to drive electricity prices thru the roof.

For some anything and everything goes as long as it increases profits - nothing personal bud, just their way of doing business.