The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	In fairness they didn't organise the referendum or choose its wording.

That wouldn't have kept them from working out at least a concept of what's to follow, something to start off of. But they didn't, and as a result now everybody is contradicting each other, including government members. That's anything but leadership.

	Quote:	Aeneas
	That would be largely because Eurosceptics have long followed the principle that the principle of sovereignty supersedes all other arguments - that is, even if it destroyed a nation, it would be worth it on principle.

Assuming they're not intending a "burn all bridges" strategy, preventing that destruction (if one considers it a realistic possibility) requires the same as above.

	Quote:	Mikers
	Funny thing is, that by continuously using microscopic detail you'll get there in the end. It reminds me of OJ Simpson really. The prosecution relentlessly pushed the point that you had to be certain he was guilty of every aspect in such infinite detail that in the end, they got the result they wanted, when its obvious he did it to the layman.

Let's say things remain as they are now and May invokes §50 in March '17, but EU rejects because they found it to be unconstitutional without explicit parliamentary bill. What would you say then, and what would be likely consequences?

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Let's say things remain as they are now and May invokes §50 in March '17, but EU rejects because they found it to be unconstitutional without explicit parliamentary bill. What would you say then, and what would be likely consequences?

That would be a mater for the courts rather than the EU. Although the basic principal holds.

	Quote:	Mikers
	Remain or Leave, campaign participatant, lawer, Hedge Fund owner, its the same. The expectation when people democratically agree on something is that is that the Government will implement it. It's really as simple as that. Funny thing is, that by continuously using microscopic detail you'll get there in the end. It reminds me of OJ Simpson really. The prosecution relentlessly pushed the point that you had to be certain he was guilty of every aspect in such infinite detail that in the end, they got the result they wanted, when its obvious he did it to the layman.

Ah but what did "the people" agree on? Hard exit with no trade terms? Exit EU but stay in the single market? Something in between? No-one knows.

Oh and I think you mean the defense.

[Mikers]

	Quote:
	Ah but what did "the people" agree on? Hard exit with no trade terms? Exit EU but stay in the single market? Something in between? No-one knows. Oh and I think you mean the defense.

The people agreed to leave the European Union. The ballot paper said the Governament would do what the people voted for.

Oh and I think you mean the defence.

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	marton
	But I did not see voting for Brexit as a solution; do you know the expression "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

Not really. If your situation is slowly but surly getting worse and worse, then you're probably better off bringing the whole system to a crash and forcing it to start over sooner rather than later. Better than a slow death.

	Quote:
	The Referendum Bill was debated in Parliament where many Eurosceptics sat and could amend if so inclined?

None of them would know what to do with actual power. Euroscepticism is a reactionary ideology - if the UKIP ever actually got into government, they'd piss themselves.

	Quote:
	"the principle of sovereignty supersedes all other arguments" The same people who complain about the wish that Parliament is involved in the Brexit process?

I never suggested those people are not also full of s**t. It's like the argument that the EU is undemocratic - fine, make it democratic and invest power in the European Parliament - watch how quickly they go cold on democracy then.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	That wouldn't have kept them from working out at least a concept of what's to follow, something to start off of.

I think they were completely surprised and have seen a successful exit from the EU, so far down the line that Brexit came as a complete shock.

	Quote:
	Assuming they're not intending a "burn all bridges" strategy, preventing that destruction (if one considers it a realistic possibility) requires the same as above.

No. They really would destroy a nation for their principles. We've just gone through about 30 years of Realpolitik, so you're probably not that familiar with quite how bat-s**t crazy the proponents of Idealpolitik are.

	Quote:
	Let's say things remain as they are now and May invokes §50 in March '17, but EU rejects because they found it to be unconstitutional without explicit parliamentary bill. What would you say then, and what would be likely consequences?

They'll strong-arm it through Parliament, of course. The present appeal is in the hope they don't have to go through all that hassle, but if they have to they will and while some will rebel, many will remember what happened to Zac Goldsmith when he voted against his constituency, on the subject.

[marton]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	Not really. If your situation is slowly but surly getting worse and worse, then you're probably better off bringing the whole system to a crash and forcing it to start over sooner rather than later. Better than a slow death. None of them would know what to do with actual power. Euroscepticism is a reactionary ideology - if the UKIP ever actually got into government, they'd piss themselves. I never suggested those people are not also full of s**t. It's like the argument that the EU is undemocratic - fine, make it democratic and invest power in the European Parliament - watch how quickly they go cold on democracy then. I think they were completely surprised and have seen a successful exit from the EU, so far down the line that Brexit came as a complete shock. No. They really would destroy a nation for their principles. We've just gone through about 30 years of Realpolitik, so you're probably not that familiar with quite how bat-s**t crazy the proponents of Idealpolitik are. They'll strong-arm it through Parliament, of course. The present appeal is in the hope they don't have to go through all that hassle, but if they have to they will and while some will rebel, many will remember what happened to Zac Goldsmith when he voted against his constituency, on the subject.

"many will remember what happened to Zac Goldsmith when he voted against his constituency" Except there were 72 Tory constituencies who voted Remain

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	marton
	"many will remember what happened to Zac Goldsmith when he voted against his constituency" Except there were 72 Tory constituencies who voted Remain

Sure and 401 out of 632 MPs represent constituencies which voted for leave. So not sure what point you want to make.

If would be very difficult for MPs to go against the referendum result now unless their constituency was very strongly Remain as in the current climate it would be seen as flouting the democratic will of the people. And that's before you consider that May is unlikely to lift the whip on this one and Corbyn isn't exactly waving the European flag anymore (not that he ever was).

[marton]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	Sure and 401 out of 632 MPs represent constituencies which voted for leave. So not sure what point you want to make. If would be very difficult for MPs to go against the referendum result now unless their constituency was very strongly Remain as in the current climate it would be seen as flouting the democratic will of the people. And that's before you consider that May is unlikely to lift the whip on this one and Corbyn isn't exactly waving the European flag anymore (not that he ever was).

"401 out of 632 MPs represent constituencies which voted for leave. So not sure what point you want to make."
My point is that the Conservative majority is 14 and there were 72 Tory constituencies who voted Remain.

So May has to rely on support by Labour voting with the Government.

	Quote:
	Labour will block the UK’s exit from the European Union if the Government is unable to guarantee access to the single market, Jeremy Corbyn has said.

Source

BTW, anybody have a theory why May has not yet appointed a deputy Prime Minister? David Cameron also did not.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	BTW, anybody have a theory why May has not yet appointed a deputy Prime Minister? David Cameron also did not.

Not that many prime ministers have & no need for one. I believe the first was Geoffrey Howe, appointed by Mrs Thatcher.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	marton
	"401 out of 632 MPs represent constituencies which voted for leave. So not sure what point you want to make." My point is that the Conservative majority is 14 and there were 72 Tory constituencies who voted Remain. So May has to rely on support by Labour voting with the Government. Source BTW, anybody have a theory why May has not yet appointed a deputy Prime Minister? David Cameron also did not.

Typical Corbyn. How does he expect May to guarantee access to the single market when nothing's been negotiated yet? He's living in cloud cuckooland anyway because the EU will not agree to that without Free Movement and that isn't going to happen either.

More and more a now realising they have been mis-sold a sickly pup.

A recent survey shows that very few leavers are prepared to be worse off when Brexit bites. They have been told it would be a panacea for the ills they are facing - and when they realise that is not the case- there will be hell let loose...

http://www.open-britain.co.uk/miliba...es_them_poorer

	Quote:
	A recent survey

Lol.

[Mikers]

	Quote:
	More and more a now realising they have been mis-sold a sickly pup. A recent survey shows that very few leavers are prepared to be worse off when Brexit bites. They have been told it would be a panacea for the ills they are facing - and when they realise that is not the case- there will be hell let loose... http://www.open-britain.co.uk/miliba...es_them_poorer

	Quote:
	Ed Miliband MP, leading supporter of the Open Britain campaign, said....

No further questions, m'lud.

Jolyon Maugham and Gina Miller going through the Irish courts now after Miller branded last weeks Commons vote as *irrelevant". At least it's good to know this has absolutely nothing to do with due process and is entirely about trying to block Brexit.

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	marton
	"401 out of 632 MPs represent constituencies which voted for leave. So not sure what point you want to make." My point is that the Conservative majority is 14 and there were 72 Tory constituencies who voted Remain.

So? If how your constituency voted is enough to decide a vote then with 60% of constituencies having voted leave, your point isn't much of a point, is it?

On top of which voting against the Brexit result will have it's own consequences.

All before one any of the parties apply the whip - at which point my money is on May, rather than Corbyn doing so more efficiently.

	Quote:
	Lol.

Lol indeed- and yet ...

BTW, how much do you think YOUR family and friends in the UK are prepared to lose/be worse off buy and for how long. Have you asked them? eg done your own poll.

	Quote:
	Lol indeed- and yet ... BTW, how much do you think YOUR family and friends in the UK are prepared to lose/be worse off buy and for how long. Have you asked them? eg done your own poll.

Polls are meaningless. The only thing that matters is the cross in the square on the ballot paper.


I'd have thought we'd have all learnt that by now.

[Mikers]

	Quote:
	Lol indeed- and yet ... BTW, how much do you think YOUR family and friends in the UK are prepared to lose/be worse off buy and for how long. Have you asked them? eg done your own poll.

Not much I expect, mind you they all voted to remain, which is what I would have done had I voted, which I didnt. My whole interest in this topic isnt about Brexit, it's about whether democracy is followed, which is of vital importance.

[marton]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	So? If how your constituency voted is enough to decide a vote then with 60% of constituencies having voted leave, your point isn't much of a point, is it? On top of which voting against the Brexit result will have it's own consequences. All before one any of the parties apply the whip - at which point my money is on May, rather than Corbyn doing so more efficiently.

Umm, it was your point not mine? I quote

	Quote:
	Post #7145; many will remember what happened to Zac Goldsmith when he voted against his constituency, on the subject.

Zac Goldsmith was a Leave supporter who was not voted in at a Remain constituency. I was agreeing with you

Now you post that your point was not much of a point

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	marton
	Now you post that your point was not much of a point

If you post that how your constituency voted will influence how you will vote in parliament, then most will end up voting to leave and lose. Those Tory MP's you cited might vote stay, but they're in the minority. Basically, the 'point' does not work both ways.

	Quote:	Mikers
	Not much I expect, mind you they all voted to remain, which is what I would have done had I voted, which I didnt. My whole interest in this topic isnt about Brexit, it's about whether democracy is followed, which is of vital importance.

Ah now I see where you're misunderstanding things.


You're confusing the UK with a democracy.