The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Um, more curious about this private health insurance thing. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...arah-wollaston I thought the NHS was available to all UK residents - so why have the private health insurance?

Well in this case I assume it relates to the EU directive and regulations on FMOP which are intended to ensure that newly resident EU citizens don't just become a burden on the public services. I know it will come as a surprise to most on team BREXIT, but the FMOP rules do include provisions to prevent people from just rocking up and claiming benefits. It would appear that this is one of the few occasions in which the U.K. decided to apply the rules!

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Well in this case I assume it relates to the EU directive and regulations on FMOP which are intended to ensure that newly resident EU citizens don't just become a burden on the public services. I know it will come as a surprise to most on team BREXIT, but the FMOP rules do include provisions to prevent people from just rocking up and claiming benefits. It would appear that this is one of the few occasions in which the U.K. decided to apply the rules!

I can understand, but for people applying for permanent residency? That means they've been in the UK for at least 5 years doesn't it? Hardly newly resident.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	I can understand, but for people applying for permanent residency? That means they've been in the UK for at least 5 years doesn't it? Hardly newly resident.

It's for people who don't work so don't pay into the system. It's the same in many places.

[StirB]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	This has nothing to do with Brexit...

Have a guess why they are suddenly forced to apply for a passport after not needing one for 30 years...

You're right, probably a coincidence.

	Quote:	StirB
	Have a guess why they are suddenly forced to apply for a passport after not needing one for 30 years... You're right, probably a coincidence.

He's not been "forced" to do anything. Nothing has yet been decided about EU citizens currently living in the UK. I'm 99% confident that they'll be allowed to stay.

He applied for a passport and found out the documentation one needs to provide in order to become a UK citizen. I had the same problem with my kids, only difference is I didn't run off crying to the Graun about it.

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	55% of farming income comes from the CAP, if you don't realise this has made farmers very much richer over 43 years perhaps you should do more research into the CAP.

Logic is not your forte. How does that prove that farmers have become very much richer over 43 years? If 55% of a man's income comes from the church poor box, does that mean they have become "very much richer" as a result?

Feel free to do more research into the CAP yourself and demonstrate how they have become "very much richer over 43 years", where the money comes from on it's own is meaningless noise, or we can simply return to presuming you're just shovelling opinion.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	Logic is not your forte. How does that prove that farmers have become very much richer over 43 years? If 55% of a man's income comes from the church poor box, does that mean they have become "very much richer" as a result? Feel free to do more research into the CAP yourself and demonstrate how they have become "very much richer over 43 years", where the money comes from on it's own is meaningless noise, or we can simply return to presuming you're just shovelling opinion.

People invest in farmland for 2 reasons, no IHT tax & 55% subsidies from the EU. That makes the value of farmland substantially higher, therefore farmers became richer as a result. Business are valued sell for a multiple of profits.........

[StirB]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	He's not been "forced" to do anything. Nothing has yet been decided about EU citizens currently living in the UK. I'm 99% confident that they'll be allowed to stay. He applied for a passport and found out the documentation one needs to provide in order to become a UK citizen. I had the same problem with my kids, only difference is I didn't run off crying to the Graun about it.

I beg to differ.

In order to continue with the same life he has had until now, he does indeed have to apply for one. These changes were forced on him externally, it was not him who changed anything, but the system.

Your 99% confidence counts for nothing here. He has been put in a position of insecurity not by anything of his own doing.

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	People invest in farmland for 2 reasons, no IHT tax & 55% subsidies from the EU. That makes the value of farmland substantially higher, therefore farmers became richer as a result. Business are valued sell for a multiple of profits.........

Do you have something more than your opinion to offer?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	Do you have something more than your opinion to offer?

Lets show you a graph, which explodes shortly after 1971.......

or if you prefer some explanation of tripling land prices over the last 10 years.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-23792583

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	StirB
	I beg to differ. In order to continue with the same life he has had until now, he does indeed have to apply for one. These changes were forced on him externally, it was not him who changed anything, but the system. Your 99% confidence counts for nothing here. He has been put in a position of insecurity not by anything of his own doing.

He's a foreigner, therefore if he wants to have a British passport, he has to apply to become a British citizen.


I still don't see what the problem is.

[StirB]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	He's a foreigner, therefore if he wants to have a British passport, he has to apply to become a British citizen. I still don't see what the problem is.

He's a foreigner? Come on mate. His first language is English (he can speak tolerable German), he is culturally English/British (depending on your preferred moniker!) and hasn't lived a day in Germany in his life.

He's as British as you or I...probably more so, as he's chosen to stay there, despite it mostly being a dump!

[Dougal's Breakfast]

	Quote:	StirB
	He's a foreigner? Come on mate. His first language is English (he can speak tolerable German), he is culturally English/British (depending on your preferred moniker!) and hasn't lived a day in Germany in his life. He's as British as you or I...probably more so, as he's chosen to stay there, despite it mostly being a dump!

My kids were born in Switzerland, are likely to grow up in Switzerland, might even live their entire lives in Switzerland. They will speak Swiss German with their mates, perhaps do an apprenticeship, get a job, play Jass, join a Guggiband, marry locals, have kids.


They still won't be Swiss unless I or they apply for Swiss citizenship.


That's just how the system works. I find it very unlikely that this chap's parents, a couple of academics - unless I'm mistaken - didn't understand that, especially given that he was born long before the Maastricht Treaty created the EU with all of the rights and entitlements that came with it.


And did it never once cross his mind, as he waved his German passport at border control on his trips to Tenerife or wherever, that it might not be a bad idea to actually become British on paper sooner or later? This is a bloke in his thirties, not some dim eighteen year old who has never known a world without Schengen.

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Lets show you a graph, which explodes shortly after 1971.......

And this proves that the CAP has made farmers all very rich, how?

Indeed, the study your graph seems to come from makes almost no mention of the EEC/EU, let alone the CAP. Instead it points to another milestone of the 1970's - inflation - and how land became a hedge against this.

The CAP may have propped up the farming industry, stopped it from going all but extinct - that's what it was designed to do - but to conclude that it made farmers rich is quite a jump in logic.

So, do you have anything more or would you like to pull up some other random and irrelevant source?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	People invest in farmland for 2 reasons, no IHT tax & 55% subsidies from the EU. That makes the value of farmland substantially higher, therefore farmers became richer as a result. Business are valued sell for a multiple of profits.........

Well there are couple of problems with this logic, not surprising really!

As I understand it, unlike other EU countries a large portion of UK farmers rent rather than own their own farms, so just because land values have gone up it does not mean all farmers have become richer. And of course it does not really matter what the value of the land is, the farmer can not dispose of it with loosing his income are well.

As far as I can see from various studies on the internet it would appear that average family incomes in the framing area run at about £25K to £35K pa which does not seem to be that excessive as you seem to imply.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	The CAP may have propped up the farming industry, stopped it from going all but extinct - that's what it was designed to do - but to conclude that it made farmers rich is quite a jump in logic.

It is also worth remembering that CAP also means cheap food, consistently available. And of course it does not stop there, there are the other jobs down the line in the food processing chain as well that rely on farm produce as input.

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	And did it never once cross his mind, as he waved his German passport at border control on his trips to Tenerife or wherever, that it might not be a bad idea to actually become British on paper sooner or later?

Dual nationality was not permitted for German citizens up until quite recently, so this may have been the logic behind it. I've known a few people who have remained in the citizenship 'grey zone' for this reason, although I've known more who have done so out of good old-fashioned laziness.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Well there are couple of problems with this logic, not surprising really! As I understand it, unlike other EU countries a large portion of UK farmers rent rather than own their own farms, so just because land values have gone up it does not mean all farmers have become richer. And of course it does not really matter what the value of the land is, the farmer can not dispose of it with loosing his income are well. As far as I can see from various studies on the internet it would appear that average family incomes in the framing area run at about £25K to £35K pa which does not seem to be that excessive as you seem to imply.

About 30% of farmers rent, according to wiki 'About 70% of farms are owner-occupied'.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricu...United_Kingdom

I was never talking about farm labourers........ or average of people living in farm areas. The profits will never go in their pockets.

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The profits will never go in their pockets.

LOL. These would be the super-normal profits from the CAP that you've still failed to demonstrate even exist?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	LOL. These would be the super-normal profits from the CAP that you've still failed to demonstrate even exist?

It's reflected in what someone will pay for the land, the buyer is paying for future cash flow. I suspect farm land will not continue to increase in value & will fall significantly over the next 20 years. It will be very obvious when the graph changes shape.