The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The Lords are the political elite. Unelected and unnecessary. If 650 MPs can vote on something, why is the opinion of 800 Lords required? It shouldn't take Brexit to have rid of them, they should have been gone years ago.

Yet, the proposal would be to replace the Lords with yet another elected body. If 650 MPs can vote on something why bother with a second house at all? Oh yeah, as fatmanfilms says, to protect against a runaway government. We should get a good example of that once Trump's cabinet is in place and Congress gets down to business.

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Yet, the proposal would be to replace the Lords with yet another elected body. If 650 MPs can vote on something why bother with a second house at all? Oh yeah, as fatmanfilms says, to protect against a runaway government. We should get a good example of that once Trump's cabinet is in place and Congress gets down to business.

The difference is that in most other functioning democracies the second house is elected. The Lords aren't.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The difference is that in most other functioning democracies the second house is elected. The Lords aren't.

So? Does being elected make them better? The UK's government has functioned quite well under the current system for some hundreds of years. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	So? Does being elected make them better? The UK's government has functioned quite well under the current system for some hundreds of years. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

In principal it does, yes.


Why should ANYONE through accident of birth have such legislative power? It's broken and needs to be fixed. But a second chamber must be elected by a different system to the commons and fairly represent the whole electorate (which the Commons very much doesn't). Most european systems function quite happily with this sort of arrangement including Switzerland.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

It's not broken and has functioned well for much longer than any two house elected system has.

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	It's not broken and has functioned well for much longer than any two house elected system has.

The horse and cart wasn't broken and had functioned well for much longer than any motor car.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

And who's to say we won't be back to the horse and cart when we run out of fossil fuel and "renewable" proves to be not as renewable as everyone makes it out to be?

	Quote:
	Why should ANYONE through accident of birth have such legislative power?

To be fair, most hereditary peerages were abolished in 1999.


Bishops 26
Conservative 252
Crossbench 178
Labour 203
Liberal Democrat 102
Non-affiliated 30
Other 14
Total 805

Personally more concerned about the outdated power of Bishops from on particular religion, and of one particular 'sect'.

	Quote:
	To be fair, most hereditary peerages were abolished in 1999.

Some are still in there and the rest are appointed. Still not democratic.

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	And who's to say we won't be back to the horse and cart when we run out of fossil fuel and "renewable" proves to be not as renewable as everyone makes it out to be?

When we run out of fossil fuel and if renewables/fusion don't work out, there ain't going to be 7 billion people on this planet for very long if we have to go back to horse and cart.

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	It's not broken and has functioned well for much longer than any two house elected system has.

I thought you were one of those that welcomed Brexit because it was a black eye for the elite? How much more elite can you get than a House of Lords?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	It's not broken and has functioned well for much longer than any two house elected system has.

Well if that were the case how did the UK end up committed to an EU that the voters apparently did not agree with... and of course given the voters opposition to unelected bodies making their laws it would seem that it has had it's day if voters are consistent...

[Sbrinz]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	The difference is that in most other functioning democracies the second house is elected. The Lords aren't.

They aren't paid either! They get a daily allowance, if they turn up at Westminster.

They are very committed people, far better than some young political loud mouth, and as their shelf life is longer than 5 years, there is also some experience in what is good for the country.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

	Quote:
	I thought you were one of those that welcomed Brexit because it was a black eye for the elite? How much more elite can you get than a House of Lords?

No, I welcomed Brexit because I think the EU has had it's day and the UK would be better off outside of it. I don't think in terms of elite, upper class, working class, middle class, etc.

BTW, there are currently 805 Lords.
252 are Tories
305 are Labour and Lib Dems
others non affiliated- so 553 to 252 Tories ...

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	They aren't paid either! They get a daily allowance, if they turn up at Westminster. They are very committed people, far better than some young political loud mouth, and as their shelf life is longer than 5 years, there is also some experience in what is good for the country.

Peer claims £300 a day in expenses to walk 200 yards to work at House of Lords
Scandal of the 'silent peers' who claim more than £1.6m in expenses despite mimimal participation in House of Lords
Lord Sewel 'drugs' video: Peer resigns from House of Lords after prostitute scandal

Westminster paedophile dossier
Cash for Honours
House of Lords drawn into lobbying scandal
Britain's House of Lords: the past scandals

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	I don't think in terms of elite, upper class, working class, middle class, etc.

You should - Britain has been set up to serve the elites since 1066. Reform is necessary. Abolishing the Lords, Proportional Representation and more referendums would be a good start.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

My list trumps yours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom

Proportional representation! Are you mad? All it does is gum up the political system and even less gets done.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Well if that were the case how did the UK end up committed to an EU that the voters apparently did not agree with... and of course given the voters opposition to unelected bodies making their laws it would seem that it has had it's day if voters are consistent...

Very good question, short answer is Ted Heath committed treason by taking Britain into the Common Market. It's not as if the electorate had voted for this & he went against his better judgement.

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	They aren't paid either! They get a daily allowance, if they turn up at Westminster. They are very committed people, far better than some young political loud mouth, and as their shelf life is longer than 5 years, there is also some experience in what is good for the country.

£300 a day for signing in is not bad, they can go home immediately afterwards. TBH it's been £300 for a VERY LONG TIME.

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Proportional representation! Are you mad? All it does is gum up the political system and even less gets done.

It's supposed to be a representational democracy, only it doesn't represent.

Nearly 4 million people voted for UKIP. They have one seat. Where's their voice? The same story for the Greens.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	It's supposed to be a representational democracy, only it doesn't represent. Nearly 4 million people voted for UKIP. They have one seat. Where's their voice? The same story for the Greens.

However with BREXIT & votes as PR the remainers burst into tears. Either way it's a Tory majority coalitions are not good for decision making so leave as it is.