The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	Urs Max
	What are "these"? If you have CH and US in mind the answer is "none". Though some have their seats for a very long time by getting elected repeatedly, personally I'd welcome a limit on the number of terms. I disagree. If you vote for a party (e.g Germany) you agree to all their bullet points even though you probably don't agree to all, let alone their prioritizing. Voting for the representative directly gives you much more choice, unfortunately it also requires much more knowledge.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough:

Life peers, hereditary peers and bishops make up a good number of the Lords. I don't agree with this and find it undemocratic.
A transferable vote or party nomination is preferable to the current situation in the House of Lords.
A direct vote for a candidate would be better still.

	Quote:	marton
	"Presidents and Prime Ministers are not above the law."

You still believe the court case came about because of this?

[Medea Fleecestealer]

But as already said, we're not talking about a democracy.

[Sbrinz]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: Life peers, hereditary peers and bishops make up a good number of the Lords. I don't agree with this and find it undemocratic. A transferable vote or party nomination is preferable to the current situation in the House of Lords. A direct vote for a candidate would be better still. You still believe the court case came about because of this?

From an earlier post:
We have (or are supposed to have) an elective democracy not an elective dictatorship. Parliament may, in law and in day to day issues, be the sovereign power in the state, but the electors are (in the words of Dicey's `Introduction for the Study of the Law of the Constitution' published in 1885) `the body in which sovereign power is vested'. Dicey goes on to point out that `in a political sense the electors are the most important part of, we may even say are actually, the sovereign power, since their will is under the present constitution sure to obtain ultimate obedience.' Bagshot, author of The English Constitution, 1867, describes the nation, through Parliament, as `the present sovereign'.

Loz, I think you should go and live in Hong Kong, they can vote for their leaders, you would be happier there....

	Quote:	Sbrinz
	Loz, I think you should go and live in Hong Kong, they can vote for their leaders, you would be happier there....

No need - I live in Switzerland, probably the most democratic country on the planet.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	No need - I live in Switzerland, probably the most democratic country on the planet.

So you see nothing wrong with a country where the political parties have colluded to form a government in defiance of our vote at the ballot box... or the collusion that thwarted the SVP's second federal councilor some time back... or the side stepping that went on over the FMOP!

Seems like a very selective definition of democracy you got there!

	Quote:	Jim2007
	So you see nothing wrong with a country where the political parties have colluded to form a government in defiance of our vote at the ballot box... or the collusion that thwarted the SVP's second federal councilor some time back... or the side stepping that went on over the FMOP! Seems like a very selective definition of democracy you got there!

Fortunately the "collusion" is few and far between. The result of referendums are enshrined in law. The betrayal over FMOP was a cowardly disgrace, and certainly one that I'm reasonably confident the UK government won't repeat. Overall the Swiss have a very good model.

[marton]

Another poll

	Quote:
	Just 35% of British public in new ICM survey would back Britain leaving the EU without agreement with other states

Source

So what is the will of the people now?

[Pachyderm]

	Quote:	marton
	Another poll Source So what is the will of the people now?

I hope you have better luck than I did in trying to find any information about that poll. The story makes no sense, but there's no link to any reference to check the figures and questions. Why would that be?

[marton]

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	I hope you have better luck than I did in trying to find any information about that poll. The story makes no sense, but there's no link to any reference to check the figures and questions. Why would that be?

I found a link here; but how does it relate to the story

[marton]

Childish games

	Quote:
	While Spain has made positive overtures to London since the Brexit vote and warned Europe against seeking a punitive deal, it has also signalled it would block UK access to the EU’s single aviation market unless the terms exclude Gibraltar’s international airport. The UK’s post-Brexit air access options include attempting to retain membership of the European Common Aviation Area, which would mean it keeps full access, or seek a bilateral “open skies” agreement with the EU, which is likely to have more restrictive terms.

Source (might be behind a paywall)

Anyway a deal with the EU over air access would likely full under the European Court of Justice which May does not want!

Never mind, Brits will always be able to fly to Europe via Istanbul

[marton]

So did we shoot ourselves in the foot or will it be "alright on the night"!

	Quote:
	UK employers are increasingly struggling to fill jobs in shops, factories and hospitals according to a new report that suggests the shortfall may be down to fewer EU migrants seeking work in the UK in the wake of the Brexit vote. Company bosses are reporting labour and skills shortages throughout the food supply chain as well as in sectors such as manufacturing, healthcare and hospitality, according to the latest Labour Market Outlook from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD) and The Adecco Group, which polls more than 1,000 employers. The most recent labour market data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed growth in the number of non-UK nationals from the European Union working in the UK had almost halved from an average of more than 60,000 per quarter in the nine months to June 2016 to just 30,000 in the three months to September 2016.

Source

	Quote:	marton
	So did we shoot ourselves in the foot or will it be "alright on the night"!

With any luck it'll get idle benefit scroungers back into work.

[lewton]

	Quote:	marton
	So did we shoot ourselves in the foot or will it be "alright on the night"! Source

You mean that people from the EU, hence 100% free to relocate and start a new job in the UK at the moment, are not willing to go there while 12 months ago they would be?
This makes no sense whatsoever.
My best guess is that these "employers" are the ones who like to bring in the most unqualified people for the most underpaid positions. I'm pretty sure the British economy and society won't suffer from this.
Personally I am not interested to move to Britain (except for Scotland if the weather was not that bad). I like very much Central Europe and I am happy where I am at the moment. But if I wanted to move there and a company was offering a position that was aligned with my expectations and skills, the Brexit prospect 2+ years down the road would totally not be an issue. On the contrary, Brexit would even motivate me to move to the UK asap.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	With any luck it'll get idle benefit scroungers back into work.

Likely it will take more than that; there are currently three quarters of a million vacancies if anybody wants to work

	Quote:	marton
	Likely it will take more than that; there are currently three quarters of a million vacancies if anybody wants to work

And currently just over three quarters of a million people claiming unemployment related benefits. Funny that.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	And currently just over three quarters of a million people claiming unemployment related benefits. Funny that.

You might foolishly imagine unemployment is nothing to do with immigrants but more to do with the will to work

[TobiasM]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	No need - I live in Switzerland, probably the most democratic country on the planet.

Can you vote here then Loz, I was unaware you were a Swiss citizens?

Its semi proportional, and often a big vote or referendum goes through where a backwards Canton with a tiny population will overrule a Canton with a larger electorate, that hardly seems to be that fair. I know most of my Swiss friends and colleagues are always remonstrating that. But you are right it is certainly one of the most democratic nations in the world.

[marton]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	Can you vote here then Loz, I was unaware you were a Swiss citizens? Its semi proportional, and often a big vote or referendum goes through where a backwards Canton with a tiny population will overrule a Canton with a larger electorate, that hardly seems to be that fair. I know most of my Swiss friends and colleagues are always remonstrating that. But you are right it is certainly one of the most democratic nations in the world.

I would argue any country where a quarter of the population cannot vote is not democratic!

As the US argued many years ago "No taxation without representation". Although as a counter argument green card holders cannot vote.

[Medea Fleecestealer]

And as we know "taxation without representation" pretty much sums up the lot of Americans abroad. Yeah, they can vote, but how many of their reps actually give a damn about them?

I think Swiss voting eligibility has some merit. If you want a say in what the country you're living in does, then get the citizenship. It's pretty easy to do in many countries.

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	TobiasM
	Its semi proportional, and often a big vote or referendum goes through where a backwards Canton with a tiny population will overrule a Canton with a larger electorate, that hardly seems to be that fair.

As we just saw in the US!

Clue (get one): there is are reason that most modern democratic countries have two houses, one based on population, the other based on states.

Tom